The Libertarian Christian Institute Releases: The Anarchist Anabaptist as a Free Audiobook
https://dailynewsfromaolf.substack.com/p/the-libertarian-christian-institute
Discussion
Going to take a look
I think it might just be free on Audible unfortunately unless I missed something
I've never understood how christians square anarchy (literally "no ruler") with the most rulery ruler one can imagine - an omnipotent and omnipresent god.
No earthly ruler. Jesus was an anarchist, proven by His words and deeds. And submission to God is 100% voluntary, unlike the state.
that makes some more sense, thanks for explaining.
submission to god is as "voluntary" as submission to the state... you can choose not to submit to the state, and then there will be unpleasant reprocussions (which the state could intervene on and avoid, but usually doesn't). just like if you don't submit to god there will be unpleasant reprocussions (which god could intervene on and avoid, but usually doesn't). prison, deportation, execution, divine punishment, eternal hellfire, etc. you can "opt out" of any of these if you "choose" properly.
you cannot choose to not be under the thumb of the state. And there are no repercussion if one is not a believer. Submission to God and being a slave to the state are hardly the same thing, and no matter what one does or does not do, we are all slaves to the state. The state will murder you and you dog, God will not. HUGE difference.
doesn't one go to hell if he doesn't believe in or accept god? and didn't god create that system?
the word Hell never appears in the Bible. That's an organized religion concept used for control, not a Biblical one (and yes, they are often two starkly contrasting things). And yes I suppose you can say God created the system, but back to the Hebrews wanting a king. That was not the plan, they lived for generations without one, and for some reason wanted one like other 'nations' (tribes) had. God warned the king would tax them into oblivion and send their sons to war. They didn't listen, But the long term plan was His Son bringing about Heaven on Earth which absolutely did NOT involve any earthly rulers.l
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
- Matthew 6:24, KJV
okay a few tangents there...
so are you saying that the god of the bible simply doesn't mind if you ignore him and all his requests? it is completely optional to get involved with him and there is no downside to completely giving him the middle finger and doing what you want?
if one lives a morally sound life, that is essentially submission to God. Doesn't necessarily require actual belief in God. Something tells me you aren't out there robbing and killing people regardless of your stance on the God question. There are moral (objectively) atheists out there. Its mainly about just good person basically. The NAP is really nothing but a secular version. And to whatever degree there may or may not be a "hell'-type afterlife, I feel safe saying there may be more 'Christians' that need to worry about that than non-Christians (defending genocide comes to mind).
I'm struggling with the fact that you don't see the parallel here... if you _happen to_ live by the State's rules, you also are "essentially submitting".
the mechanics are the same - there is a system set up where the rules are set by a ruler, whether it's a State or a god, and if you happen to go along with the ruler's rules, you'll be okay (whether or not you are consciously submitting). its literally the same parameters with different window dressings.
The 'laws' I follow I would follow regardless. And the laws I break aren't crimes. I don't murder people because there is a law against it. I dont murder people because its immoral and violates their rights. And to the degree I do 'submit' its to avoid being kidnapped and caged or murdered. You really cannot compare the two
you can't think of a single "mandate" or directive from god that violation of would get you in trouble with him but doesn't violate anyone else's rights?
If you are referring to the 10 Commandments, those are Judaic Law and only pertained to the Hebrews. But as for any type of punishment, I have no clue about any afterlife type punishment, but it happens to people all the time. Some call it karma. Some call it cosmic justice. All the same thing imho
do you have to be a believer to have those "punishments" apply to you?
I wouldnt think so since it comes from the source of existence. Create an imbalance, there will be a response to return to balance. Everything is energy, action-reaction.
so this ruler doesn't respect Exit. everyone is his subjects whether they like it or not.
and this somehow squares with anarchy for you? (and not ultimate dictatorship?)
You keep humanizing the laws that govern existence. That I am bound by things that make existence exist has nothing at all to do with anarchy. Again, anarchy is about EARTHLY rulers only. Cosmic laws are irrelevant to any version of anarchy. They are irrelvant to any belief system. They just are. And to imply its akin to a dictatorship is so far off base to the point of being absurd.
if cosmic laws are irrelevant to any belief system, then what is your conception of God? didn't you say earlier that God created the laws and set them in place?
my point is that you are creating this god story, saying he made the rules and that one is not able to opt out of the rules (which is a choice god made - being omnipotent he could have made the rules voluntary. you could imagine a system where an omnipotent god allows different belief sets to be governed by different laws of physics. if he can't create such a system he's not so omnipotent... so clearly he _chose_ not to embed consent at the bottom of reality)
given that you've invented this whole story, it sounds similar to me to inventing the fiction of an "ultra ruler" State, and saying "sure you can have anarchy at the more local levels, but at the top level, we all must be beholden to the ultra-ruler state, because naturally that's the system that underlies all the local layers".
that's not a freedom/anarchy mindset. that's a Statist mindset of the most egregious variety: inventing an ultra state that nobody can escape - like a prison planet.
I'm saying that you **can choose to stop believing that fiction** (just like you can reject accepting the fiction of any state) and actually free your mind. down to the bottom. its like an "anarchist" who rejects local rulers but welcomes federal or global ones. just go all the way.
Whatever dude. Its very clear now you weren't really trying to understand my point so think what you want, I dont give a fuck
you've made your point clear and I understand it now. and above is my reaction to your clearly made point. if you're not interested in hearing my view that's fine, but I don't think I've misunderstood you by this point.
You start talking all this nonsense that I just made everything I said up. What more is there for me to say if that's your opinion of it all?
try not paying taxes and see the reaction. When has God done anything of the sort of not donating to a church or some shit? One demands obedience, the other is voluntary. And again, its just about being a good person. Living a moral life. Take God and Jesus out of it and substitute natural law. Same exact thing. God's Laws and Natural Law are interchangeable terms, depending on use case and ones beliefs.
The
Basic
Instructions
Before
Leaving
Earth,
particularly the the Gospels, are nothing but a spiritual Natural Law seminar.
A good example of all of this is the Amish / Mennonites. They live in the world, but are not of the world. They have no use for the state, and only submit to what will keep them out of prison (taxes). One thing you may be missing is that anarchism does not automatically preclude any type of hierarchical structure, and in the case of the Amish, they most certainly do have one. But its not ruling over the community but more advisory and just keeping long held traditions in place like say tribal elders, referred to by some as the 'Natural Elite' (de facto leaders but have little to no actual authority). And anyone is free to leave at anytime they choose. Which again is the key difference. Can one opt-out or not.
I have no problem with voluntary heirarchies. they're rather important.
Well look at Christian Anarchism in that manner. Same idea but with God. Basically the polar opposite of mainstream Christianity, which may be another part of the contradiction you are/were seeing. Those mofos are a horrible and mostly Biblically illiterate.
I see what you're getting at, but you seem to be avoiding this point: are there any "rules from god" that an unbeliever can break and cause god to reach over into their world of unbelief and give them pain for? a very simple question.
or does your conception of god actually fully commit to leaving "unsubscribed" souls alone, even if they do stuff he finds atrocious, off in their own world?
First part, see my reply about karma. As for the second, we are all ruled by the laws of the universe. My calling the source of all this God isnt about a dude in the clouds. Whatever God / Creator / Source may be, I doubt its human comprehensible. But whatever it is, we all are governed by the same laws. One need not understand or even believe in physics, but it affects us all the same. Same goes for other universal / metaphysical systems of governance. Another thing to keep in mind is what may seem like punishment is often God (or whatever) is putting you in a place to grow or stagnate. Punishment being stagnation, reward being overcoming an obstacle and the personal growth that comes with it.
so would you agree that the "laws of the universe" are not voluntary nor opt-in? everyone is subject to them whether they want to be or not?
also: were those laws created and set in place by god?
Yes and set in place by whatever it is that caused existence. There is nothing random about our existence whatever caused it imho if that's what you might be getting at. Too much complexity in all of life for it to be a result of billions of years of randomness. Too many biological sytems that are required to work in tandem in living things for a series of random mutaltions to generate them simultaneously (irreducible complexity). The Bible isnt the be all, end all of the history of humanity and existence. Just documentation of a segment of history as pertains to a man who, whether real or imagined, man or god incarnate, changed the world forever. But there is much more and I can see nothing but a something doing this with intent as the source of it all.
so this ruling system - archy - applies to everything and everyone everywhere, and there is no opt out.
in this view, the concept of anarchy is everywhere impossible. you've described the perfect system of control at the physical and metaphysical level across all time and space.
luckily for me, this is a fiction and not an accurate description of reality. It sounds truly awful. at least human rulers can be overcome or avoided.
so you are not governed by the laws of physics, which is a making of the creative source? Anarchy of any flavor, is about earthly rulers, nothing more. Because some believe in God and use the Bible as their guide does not change anything. And you don't have to believe in cosmic justice or karma or any other term for it, it effects you whether you like it or not, whether you believe it or not. Like gravity, it cares not one bit about a person's opinion of it
another thing I just thought of that I feel I need to clarify. Submission and obedience do not mean the same thing as pertains to the state. There are many law I do not obey as they are unjust laws and if I wanna smoke pot I'll smoke pot. But the times I was arrested for it, I submitted to the arrest cuz the other option is death. And as for the Biblical relevance, Jesus broke all sorts of laws (mostly those of The Pharisees, but they held much political influence locally), but submitted to 'authorities' when they came for him. Although in his case, it was in part because he knew he had to die, but the differentiation of terms remains
This is what I have said.
I also only find libertarianism applicable to humans. When I get to heaven, I have a different set of beliefs (I. E. Sinners burning in hell for some time etc.)
Sin and Hell is an OT Judaic concept. In fact, the word hell does not appear in the Bible at all. As for only being applicable to human, who else could it be applicable to? Its a human idea.