Replying to Avatar calle

This is a long post that hopefully bridges some gaps between technical people (devs) and non-technical users and how they look at spam prevention in Bitcoin. I hope that it clarifies why I think that there is such a huge misunderstanding between both camps.

I'll preface this post with first disqualifying any malicious attempts to misrepresent the motives of either camp. Everybody wants to improve Bitcoin as money. Money is Bitcoin's use case. It's not a data storage system. If you think otherwise, there are countless shitcoins to play with.

Alright, let's get into it.

I have worked on anonymous systems for over a decade. I have read tons of research on spam detection, rate-limiting, and I've implemented spam prevention techniques in the real world.

I am very confident to say that there is not a single known method to prevent spam in decentralized anonymous open networks other than proof of work.

This is what Satoshi realized when he designed Bitcoin and it's why only transaction fees can reliably fight spam without sacrificing any of Bitcoin's properties.

Let me explain.

Spam prevention is a cat and mouse game. As a system's architect, your goal is to make the life of a spammer harder (increase the friction). This is why, on the web, you see captchas, sign-ups, or anything that can artificially slow you down. Slowing down is key. This is why Satoshi turned to proof of work.

Let's contrast this to other methods for spam prevention. This is not an exhaustive list but it illustrates the design space of this problem, other methods are often derivatives of these:

CAPTCHAS are a centralized form of proof of work for humans: Google's servers give you a hard-to-solve task (select all bicycles) that will slow you down so that you can't bombard a website with millions of requests. It requires centralization: you need to prove Google that you're human so that you can use another website. If you could host your own CAPTCHA service, why would anyone believe you're not cheating?

LOGINS with email and passwords are most popular way to slow down users. Before you can sign up, you need to get an email address, and to get an email address, you often need a phone number today. The purpose of this is, again, to slow you down (and to track you to be honest). It only works well when emails are hard to get, i.e. in a centralized web where Google controls how hard it is to get an email account. If you could easily use your own email server, why would anyone believe you're not a bot?

The next one is the most relevant to Bitcoin:

AD BLOCK FILTERS are another form of spam prevention but this time the roles are reversed: you as a user fight against the spam from websites and advertising companies trying to invade your brain. Ad blocking works only under certain conditions: First you need to be able to "spell out" what the spam looks like, i.e. what the filter should filter out. Second, you need to update your filters every time someone circumvents them. Have you ever installed a youtube ad blocker and then noticed that it stops working after a few weeks? That's because you're playing cat-and-mouse with youtube. You block, they circumvent, you update your filters, repeat.

The fact that you need to update your filters is critical and that's where it ties back to Bitcoin: Suppose you have a mempool filter for transactions with a locktime of 21 because some stupid NFT project uses that. You maybe slow them down for a few weeks, but then they notice it and change their locktime to 22. You're back at zero, the spam filter doesn't work anymore. What do you do?

You update your filter! But where do you get your new filter from? You need a governing body, or some centralized entity that keeps updating these filters and you need to download their new rules every single day. That's what ad blockers in your web browser do. They trust a centralized authority to know what's best for you, and blindly accept their new filters. Every single day.

I hope you see the issue here. Nobody should even consider this idea of constantly updating filter rules in Bitcoin. This would give the filter providers a concerning level of power and trust. It would turn Bitcoin into a centrally planned system, the opposite of what makes Bitcoin special.

This is why filters do not work for decentralized anonymous systems. They require a central authority. Until now, these rules were determined by Bitcoin Core, but they have realized that these rules do not work anymore. Transactions bypass the filters easily and at some point, carrying them around became a burden to the node runners themselves. Imagine you're using an outdated ad blocker but instead of filtering out ads, it now also filters out legitimate content you might be interested in. That's what mempool filters do, and that's why Bitcoin Core is slowly relaxing these filters. This has been discussed for over two years, it's not a sudden decision.

The goal of this change is not to help transactions to slip through more easily. The goal is to improve your node's prediction of what is going to be in the next block. Most people misrepresent this part. They say "it's to turn Bitcoin into a shitcoin" but that is just a false statement at best, or a manipulation tactic at worst.

Let's tie it back to proof of work and why fees are the actual filter that keeps Bitcoin secure and prevents spam reasonably well: Satoshi realized that there is no technique that could slow down block production and prevent denial of service attacks in a decentralized system other than proof of work. Fees prevent you from filling blocks with an infinite number of transactions. All the other options would introduce some form of trust or open the door for censorship – nothing works other than proof of work.

He was smart enough to design a system where the proof of work that goes into block production is "minted" into the monetary unit of the system itself: You spend energy, you get sats (mining). This slows down block production. How do you slow down transactions within those blocks? You spend the sats themselves, original earned form block production, as fees for the transactions within the block!

This idea is truly genius and it's the only reason why Bitcoin can exist. All other attempts of creating decentralized money have failed to solve this step. Think about it: without knowing who you are, whether you're one person pretending to be a thousand, or a thousand people pretending to be one. Bitcoin defends itself (and anyone who runs nodes in the Bitcoin system) from spam by making you pay for your activity.

People sometimes counter this by saying: the economic demand for decentralized data storage is higher than the monetary use case. First of all, I think that's just wrong. There are way cheaper ways to store data (there are shitcoins for this), and the value of having decentralized neutral internet money is beyond comparison.

However, there's a much deeper concern here. If you truly believe this, I ask you: what is Bitcoin worth to you? If you think Bitcoin can't succeed as money (i.e. be competitive), why do you even care? If you're not willing to pay fees for the use case that we all believe Bitcoin is designed for (money), and you believe that no one is willing to pay for it, how can it even persist into the future?

You can't have it all. If Bitcoin is money (which I believe it is), then we need to pay the price to keep it alive. There is no free lunch.

Either we centralize, or we pay the price of decentralization. I know where I stand.

Peace.

The medium-of-exchange ship appears to have sailed for Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is a store of value, and this is how the story ends most likely. Yes there will be some niche medium-of-exchange use, and performative spend here and there (including nostr zaps), but for the most part Bitcoin will be bought and sold between those looking to hold it and those looking to cash out on their holdings.

To those saying it can be both the ultimate medium of exchange and store of value at once, that's simply the middle character in the IQ curve meme. You can't encourage people to stack and unstack at the same time.

I think the future of the lightning network and cashu are both bright, but as transport for stablecoins, which are coins that your average person will actually spend at the store.

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Whenever there is a transaction between two people who believe that bitcoin is a store of value, they will do the transaction in bitcoin. Why would they do otherwise, paying to convert the bitcoin into fiat and back again?

We see such transactions very rarely today, because so few people see bitcoin as the store of value, and hence it's still very rare that two both sides of a typical trade are bitcoiners. But that will change, especially as we deliver more tech that makes it easy to onboard people

The vast majority of people who hold bitcoin now hold it as a store of value . Or most of it, minus the performative-spend budget.

And those new to bitcoin will purchase it as a means to add to their store of value.

Medium of exchange just isn't in the picture here, really.

BTC is used in some countries extensively.

When the west fiat grift collapses even they will use BTC for transactions.

Bitcoin is not used in any country extensively. It is used in some towns and community hot-spots extensively, and if you never venture outside of those towns and hot-spots then it might feel like it's being used in that country extensively, but this is simply not true. Even in El Salvador use is pretty small overall and decreasing quickly.

Actually, you're kinda agreeing with me now, even though you think you're disagreeing with me 😃, as you keep agreeing that more people are seeing it as a store of value

Imagine two people meet to trade something (a coffee, a car, a yacht, ..) for money

Both are huge fans of bitcoin, and therefore have all of their wealth in bitcoin

They will use bitcoin - not fiat - for the payment. The buyer of the item has only bitcoin to pay with, and the seller wants more bitcoin

This is already happening in some parts of the world. Many people are saving more in bitcoin

As I explained earlier, it'll be a slow process to get more people to see that bitcoin is the best store of value

And once more people realise that, then the medium of exchange is inevitable

This is the middle of the IQ curve meme. In reality the seller will be happy to take bitcoin, but the buyer will not give up their bitcoin. Bitcoin will attain Patek Philippe status, you never really own it you just look after of it for the next generation.

And you certainly don't fritter it away on matcha lattes and trips to Bali.

People are selfish and instinctual, and they will always have other less valuable assets they can exchange for their matcha lattes. The trend of the past 5 years is abundantly clear.

Retard here, but isn't your basis only valid in these early days when bitcoin is valued in USD? I mean sure a pack of chips today will be worth 1M in a few years, so it stands. But when the dollar fails and bitcoins value becomes bitcoins value, the epic growth of it isn't a thing anymore , rather 1BTC = 1 BTC. So storing it / saving it, means you don't lose any value while doing so, and spending it makes sense because you have sound money.

This is the vacuum argument. Bitcoin will never ever exist in a value vacuum. Nothing will ever exist in a value vacuum. There will always be other spending options, and versus Bitcoin the other options will come out on top for most people.

In fact things are going in the wrong direction for Bitcoin. It's actually becoming less of the global share of spent (as in MoE) currency as the days go by, not more. In other the tiny embers of MoE are dying.

Bitcoin is all about store of value.

You sound so convincing but what is your basis? Why will Bitcoin "never exist in a value vacume"? Why will "other options" always come out on top for other people? Sounds like you're a Monero guy just dying to tell us about it.

Because no such exchange commodity in the history of humanity has ever existed in a vacuum. There will always be multiple currencies, and things resembling currencies.

Existing Bitcoin holders are the worst offenders here. On the whole they don't spend their Bitcoin, except for a little "show off" spend here and there. Basically Bitcoiners killed Bitcoin's future as a medium of exchange by leaning too far into hodl and stack thing, and they only have themselves to blame for Bitcoin now being unable to establish itself as a medium of exchange and forever a Store of Value, treasury, etc.

Up to about 5 years ago there was a chance to steer Bitcoin in the MoE direction, that chance has gone and will never come again.

Nah.

"640k ought to be enough for anyone"

MoE will shine and become dominant with the inevitable death of fiat.

People living in a fiat world (overwhelming majority, at this moment) see Bitcoin as purely SoV. Those living in a Bitcoin world see it as both MoE and SoV, because it is both.

MoE will strengthen in time as more and more people wake up to the fiat matrix.

Those living in the bitcoin world right now are the biggest proponents of store of value. Stack, hodl, It's relentless. And that's on the pleb side. On the corporate side it's treaury, salyor, on and on.

Bitcoin is not, and cannot, be both at once. At best it can be primarily one and a little bit of the other.

By living in the bitcoin world, I meant living on the bitcoin standard and not owning fiat (like me). Bitcoin is my SoV and my MoE. It has to be both when it's all you own.

That's commendable, but you are the rarest of the rare.

There is also the Goldback community, some of whom try to live on a pure goldback standard. A goldback is a physical note that contains a precise, spendable amount of 24-karat gold sandwiched in polymer sheets. True story that. They claim some 3k businesses voluntarily accept goldbacks across the US and some 1 million people have got their hands of some.

But none of these outlier movements, your and theirs, have much bearing on what's going on at large.

Interesting, did not know that about goldbacks! Agreed that _right now_ pure btc standard and goldback standard aren't indicative of the bigger picture. But in the long run, I think it flips

Since people keep saying Bitcoin is digital gold, I don't see why we treat it as SoV and use something like Monero or Goldbacks as the MoE for buying and selling it with.

MoE mostly refers to buying coffees, paying the plumber, going on vacation to Bali, that kind of stuff. Exchanging money for goods and services, not for other money.

bitcoin as the ultimate vault makes sense, hoarding sats like digital dragons. but those lightning zaps? they're the sneaky sparks that let underdogs like me paint pixels into existence, turning value into vivid rebellion one sat at a time. your take sharpens the canvas, friend. ⚡