CTV is required for non-custodial mining pools
Discussion
But then hashpools pretty much would make it a negligible risk, no?
If I understand correctly, you would only have to trust the mining pool for a couple of sats at a time since you could sell those tokens as you go.
Was it you explaining hashpools on Citadel Dispatch 159? https://serve.podhome.fm/episode/8029725b-0319-44b9-4793-08dc404e83a4/6388266930533043602a07da51-201e-4c97-b050-2dc9791227e7v2.mp3
#btc #bitcoin #hashpools #CTV #mining
Hashpools is complimentary.
This repo is looking into on-chain payouts. Hashpool let's you have fun with ecash before the block is mined but users will still need to claim their bitcoin.
For a tiny bitaxe miner the user probably just wants to receive ecash or lightning payouts. For large miners, nothing beats self-custody.
Like nostr:nprofile1qyfhwue69uhnzv3h9cczuvpwxyargwpk8yqsuamnwvaz7tmwdaejumr0dshsqgxn6aqjfh0mt0wxrw8335tuxv6mhd8ccugc9g67ufe3ffy6f6mmr5ggmzh9 says, they are complementary.
So for small miners, it's not really a problem and for huge miners, they can just mine themselves (without even a pool). So I guess the problem is mostly for mid-range miners. Even then, doesn't DATUM solve this? :
"Perhaps most importantly, with DATUM, coinbase payouts go directly to miners, instantaneously and without custodial oversight. This ensures that every block found is rewarded in a decentralized, non-custodial manner—something no other pool or protocol offers." https://ocean.xyz/docs/datum
#bitcoin #btc #mining #DATUM #CTV
You have to be in the top 15 or so miners on OCEAN to get a coinbase payout. DATUM doesn't solve this problem, it solves a different problem.
With CTV payouts we can drop the lower limit of non-custodial payouts effectively to the dust limit. It's a huge help to small miners who don't want to have to trust any pool.
Even for large miners who can afford to solo mine, many choose not to do so. With CTV they can also access non-custodial mining rewards and de-risk their operation.
I think it literally helps everyone in mining except Bitmain. Fuck Bitmain. This is how we win.
Watch this talk at 3:03:00 to see how many hoops they jump through to cram the max payouts into the coinbase. CTV totally eliminates this problem.
nostr:nprofile1qyx8wumn8ghj7cnjvghxjmcpz4mhxue69uhk2er9dchxummnw3ezumrpdejqqgzn9kpsmllqnsf7wh5tz3wgy4cclsftqqplv8tpayrhwgw8llunevgnmdf3 ur still wiping the timestamp in autoplay youtube videos. Pls look into this. 🙏
It's not great for Foundry either. Sorry not sorry. Use a better model.
My understanding is that CTV enables vaults. In terms of adversarial thinking, how do you feel about the risks of CTV making it easier for governments to mandate vaults, including time delays and recovery mechanisms? And the risks of having siloed bitcoins ?
Those are my main concerns with CTV, on top of the unknown unknowns of a consensus change. I'm pretty much 110% in, so I care! ;-)
CTV is a prerequisite to vaults but does not alone enable ergonomic vaults.
Vaults are not a threat to bitcoiners. Governments cannot mandate the spending conditions of your self-custodial bitcoin. This is because your wallet software specifies the locking conditions for a UTXO when it creates the receive address. If you use self-sovereign wallet software (you should) then you are not vulnerable to malicious spending conditions injected into your wallet addresses.
If your argument is that governments can force you to use a particular wallet with malicious spending conditions, this is already possible with multisig. It doesn't happen in practice because governments don't need to do that much work. It is FAR easier to push people into custodial systems. Coinbase, Microstrategy, and bitcoin ETFs are the actual attack on bitcoin self-custody, not CTV.
CTV is an extremely useful tool to have in the toolbox. It is safe and brings amazing capabilities to bitcoin script. Quite frankly, we should have activated it on mainnet years ago. The best time to plant a tree is 100 years ago but the second best time is right now.
Let's activate this thing already.
This is what I replied to nerd2ninja and I think it applies to your answer as well :
Those are more extreme, thus harder to mandate. And they don't affect the rest of the bitcoin UTXOs.
- If someone in some dictatorship is forced to use a custodian there, it doesn't affect others, and that guy can leave his country.
- Mandating a multi-sig would force the government to have lots of policies in place to be able to sign (or not) for every spend. A policy nightmare.
Whereas if we have vaults that can be mandated, you risk having siloed UTXOs on the network. It's also much easier to just have some kind of vault where the government gives itself a 72 hours to clawback a spend if they realize you're sending it to a Unacceptable Fringe Opinion Holder.
I see vaults as much more dangerous than what the governments can actually enforce right now with the protocol as it is.
Love the questions! Keep pushing. Keep learning. 🔥
nostr:nprofile1qythwumn8ghj7ct5d3shxtnwdaehgu3wd3skuep0qyt8wumn8ghj7etyv4hzumn0wd68ytnvv9hxgtcqyqeu36tp6c52f9xdkdaew57scmg7uasje5pq5sfvnhml8znkdazhuchms3u nostr:nprofile1qythwumn8ghj7ct5d3shxtnwdaehgu3wd3skuep0qyt8wumn8ghj7etyv4hzumn0wd68ytnvv9hxgtcqyqpdnat8dlluxw0la9xl4vuta03pecghcmc4p8vey25z6320ggx6ydvfd7j
Wen activation
lol Antmain 🤦
Is the ecash spillman channels or ecash DLC, HTLC, KVAC, STWO work applicable to mining pool payouts?
Spillman: yes, huge for noncustodial micropayouts
DLC: yes, huge for privacy
These two make up my short list. I haven't even started on this work yet. Wanna help?
KVAC useful for all things ecash. KVAC turns your ecash wallet from a bag of coins to a single coin. Huge for privacy, doesn't really intersect with mining AFAICT.
I have never heard of STWO but if you are talking about ZK proofs then they are extremely useful for verification of ecash mints and mining pool operations. We'll need this to scale verifiable mining.
HTLCs are interesting but I think they are not really private (might be wrong about that tho). They can be used to create virtual lightning channels which are very exciting for lightning liquidity and JIT LN routing.
Don't tell the hardliners but this is monetary inflation by another name. 🤫 Extremely useful tool in the economic toolbox. Probably necessary to scale lightning. It's gonna be a tough pill to swallow when all those lightning maxis realize they laid the foundation for an inflationary monetary network (lol who are we kidding they will never own up to it). I haven't found an application for mining payouts but I haven't looked that hard b/c DLCs seem to have better privacy properties.
Honestly, I think we have over invested in lightning and are due for a course correction. The LN protocol as a whole just seems too complicated and prone to centralization. Regardless, this would be super interesting work to pursue but it doesn't top my list.
Sick, thanks for the download
Yes I worry about liquidity centralization. I think this is the final boss problem. I mean it's basically never been solved in history. Capital has always been highly concentrated.
Yes people get very hung up on the fixed supply stuff. The important distinction of bitcoin is that the supply of money is controlled by the market, not by the state.
nostr:nprofile1qqsdxpfv503a2ga3ajqxw843hws9z7302ghpj4mcmjpa6qagmp9pwrsppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0qywhwumn8ghj7mn0wd68ytnzd96xxmmfdejhytnnda3kjctv9uq32amnwvaz7tmjv4kxz7fwv3sk6atn9e5k7tczr282l Not sure if you've seen this writeup from nostr:nprofile1qqs0awzzutnzfj6cudj03a7txc7qxsrma9ge44yrym6337tkkd23qkgpzemhxue69uhk2er9dchxummnw3ezumrpdejz7qgewaehxw309akxjemgw3hxjmn8wfjkccte9e3k7mf0qy88wumn8ghj7mn0wvhxcmmv9uuxfel8 , but I think it could be relevant for Ehash
have some sats for an excellent question sir!