hodlers dont pay for network security
they dont use the Bitcoin network at all
ridiculous to call them bitcoiners
Discussion
if you dont pay for network security,
you are a freeloader, not a network user.
sorry not sorry
I'll bite... Stance on Liquid?
not sure I see the connection?
but Liquid is cool enough
like LTC or most alts really,
its not different *enough*
why should someone elect to use it over BTC?
seems like its failed to find a usecase
I like Liquid to consolidate smaller tx's, before going onchain in a big UTXO. 🤷🏻♂️ Don't know why you see the need to refer to something like LTC, but you do you.
the point was,
like LTC
nobody uses liquid.
because it doesn't offer enough of a different usecase.
if youre moving into liquid
consolidating
and then pegging back out.
its certainly obvious to chainanalysis
since liquid doesnt hide the tx graph
Hot take: Liquid is actually kind of awesome and it’s finding utility as a back end for nodeless Lightning wallets. Nobody needs to peg in and out of it, just download any of the apps that do this and you can receive and send payments immediately with no channel management. Think Venmo for bitcoin, but with self custody.
"nodeless LN wallets"?
so instead of settling to a Bitcoin utxo
they settle to a Lbtc utxo?
doesnt this only provide an advantage as long as Liquid is unused?
that is pretty cool, if only a bandaid.
what wallets do this?
The advantage is a much easier setup for the user, they don’t have to know anything about liquidity to make payments. Every transaction is swapped between Lightning and settles on Liquid in under a minute.
The user never has to do anything different except send and receive normally, but if they wanted to, they can see all their UTXOs and access their wallet with their seed phrase.
Wallets that do this now are Aqua and new ones built with Breez SDK, like Yopaki and a new Breez wallet I’ve been testing that is still in early release.
I like these approaches because they will help bring bitcoin to more people, faster and easier than expecting everyone to use the base chain or run their own nodes – both complete fantasies.
I mean
this is just a submarine swap to Liquid no?
and they're doing it becadue Breez users got burned during the ordinal thing?
I’m still trying to understand how you can hold bitcoin without doing a tx which is paying for network security. I don’t understand the argument. Like if you only have an ETF then you would be right but to have at least one UTXO you would have to pay for that transaction would you not?
I bought a car and drove it home.
I left it parked in the garage ever since.
usually this behavior is not considered a user of the car or of the roads.
likewise
paying a tx fee once doesn't make one a user of the chain.
So when do you become a user? 2 tx, 3tx, 4… 100?
Seems like a strange argument because don’t most HODLers keep accumulating? Like how many ppl have bought bitcoin once and held and never used a tx again seems unlikely.
What if I pay for network security by paying electricity for running NerdMiner with 70kH which is just a couple of wats of ⚡️
Am I not contributing to security and paying for that security even though it’s just couple of cents per month?
miners contribute to network security.
so they fufill my condition.
There’s a problem in consistency here. If I am a hodler with only one UTXO I had to pay transaction fee or at least decide to give up on the amount of fees that were needed for me to get ownership of that UTXO. It is small amount but it is still a contribution. Same goes for my NerdMiner. It ridiculously small contribution but as you say it is still a contribution
nostr:note10p89k75wjtmm6q2pm9n34fgfghenykm3rzaza72ah5csc53mdtrqwzfk4e
This is a ridiculous take but as a freedom loving pleb I’ll die defending your right to say things you believe in regardless of how crazy they seem
Arguing about this is just a waste of time.
its a game theory dilemma and a design flaw
I see neither game theory nor design flaw here - it’s just a decision on how you wanna look at things
its clearly an example of the free rider problem
so a game theory problem with no obvious solution.
its true that "design flaw" is a matter of perspective.
If you see value in holding bitcoin you are probably going to want to stack more sats. Forcing you to use the network. The incentive is to get more which requires using the network.
nostr:nprofile1qqs0npwnpyvheqz7zuvuwvv9k460c0hyqlturds40hhfn34vufvehwc4juq47 this is the way I see things also. Even if I don’t hold any Bitcoin nearly using mempool.space to see if Bitcoin is still functional IS using the network
Sure
basic accumulation is a basic form of use.