Nostr Web Client

Bringing back #Bitcoin #SkepticismSundays 😎

One of the things that showed me the intellectual honesty of the Monero community and helped to force the community to stay grounded in reality and always laser focused on their core ethos was their weekly "Skepticism Sunday" Reddit threads. These threads allowed the community to come together, ask hard and skeptical questions about the design of Monero, the privacy provided, the economic approach, and much more.

In my time in Bitcoin I've never seen anything similar, but the nuanced and high-signal crowd on Nostr seems like a perfect fit to fire things up and see how it goes.

The goal of this thread (which I'll post weekly on Sunday's) is for discussing the uncertainties, shortcomings, and concerns some may have about Bitcoin. Things like what makes it difficult for you to use Bitcoin, what pain-points you have, etc.

NOT the positive aspects of it.

Discussing things with a critical thinking approach and level-headed discussion helps us learn where Bitcoin and its community can improve and go from there.

P.S. -- I try to take a break from social media on Sundays so I will follow up and reply whwre I can tomorrow!

Chad 1y ago

I have a general question about crypto.

Let's say crypto starts gaining traction as money to the point where the govt feels threatened.

They respond by banning all business dealings with it.

Even if they can't control or even identify transactions on the blockchain, they can still see who publicly accepts crypto (by looking at website payment options, audits, investigations, etc).

This would make the vast majority of people avoid crypto, and businesses dealing in crypto illegally couldn't scale.

This seems like the likely scenario as the govt will not just let this much power slip away.

Isn't this a fundamental problem?

Reply to this note

Please Login to reply.

Discussion

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

"As a simple matter of definition, Bitcoin operations cannot be both white market and permissionless"

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Permissionless-Principle

Chad 1y ago

Thanks for the resource!

So is the long term plan for Bitcoin to serve as tool for activism in the hopes that enough people eventually become part of the movement to where it would become political suicide not to allow it in the white market?

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

It's more a logical observation/description

Some people cater to the idea you are saying. A sort of political trojan horse. I personally think that is a bit naive. Bitcoin will not be allowed unrestrained in white markets. Too powerful for those in power. Over time it will be pushed out or only allowed as a shadow of itself (think ETFs, licensed custodians, and burdensome tax requirements)

Thus Bitcoin/Monero/crypto core use is ultimately for spaces outside and between white markets

Chad 1y ago

Ya, it does seem like the case.

So what's the point of all this if it won't significantly impact the financial system that everyone is forced into?

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Didn't say it wouldn't impact the financial system. It surely will. Just not likely from within or only to a lesser degree (jurisdictional arbitrage).

Mainly parallel economies. Before there were no decentralized permissionless digital currencies. Now those who want to have the ability to opt-out in part or fully

Chad 1y ago

Ya, I can see it being useful for those who are willing to take the risk.

It seems to me that that risk will only grow as the fed's stranglehold grows tighter over time.

Whenever it becomes a significantly problem for them, it seems all they have to do is put out some propaganda and squash it down with more surveillance, regulation, and punishment.

I respect those who want to try anyways, but I don't see a path to victory even for those in the black market if they even begin to start some disruption.

It seems the best chance (even if also a low chance) has to be to win people over somehow to provide political resistance.

Maybe proving how well it works in crypto friendly countries can be a part of that.

Just my thoughts.

I'm ignorant of about 99% of all this.

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Many Bitcoiners have the same opinion you do. None of us know for sure what will happen. Good thing we have multiple experiments running. I guess we'll see what happens.

zhenya 1y ago

Cryptoeconomics is indeed a challenging and enlightening read for a bitcoiner. Many inconvenient truths.

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Felt the same way back when I first went thru it. Couldn't argue with the logic presented and changed my view.

zhenya 1y ago

Im trying to set up my first mobile monero wallet. The monero website lists two lightweight wallets, mymonero and cake.

Getting mymonero working from source on graphene initially eluded me so i went to try cake.

Then i saw these god awful T&Cs at cake https://changenow.io/terms-of-use

Mind if i ask what are a few well regarded lightweight wallets are? Is mymonero worth the effort to set up or are there reasonable alternatives for a small grapheneos test wallet?

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

I would avoid MyMonero. Since their servers keep you synced, they can see things wallets shouldn't be able to, so it defeats the whole point of Monero.

Cake Wallet is a solid choice and favorite of many. Open source and non custodial. It also offers a feature, that other wallets currently do not, that removes a big annoyance of Monero - autosyncs when charging

Stack Wallet and Monerujo are other good choices

If you are hardcore, check out Anonero. Security and privacy dials to the max. Can only get it on the spooky web:

http://anonero5wmhraxqsvzq2ncgptq6gq45qoto6fnkfwughfl4gbt44swad.onion/

zhenya 1y ago

Thanks Nameless. Ill give those an eye. Im not too hardcore. Mostly looking to test and get familiar.

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

No prob man, let me know if you have any other questions and hopefully I can help

zhenya 1y ago

Best site of the bunch for a pleb to get comfortable https://www.monerujo.io/

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Yea, some people don't like that. And admittedly it annoys me too.

But those T&Cs are for the exchange feature since they send you to third party providers (that you can choose) if you use them.

You can just not ever use the built in exchange feature.

You can also turn off the exchange/buy/sell features in the settings so it's just purely a wallet (which I do)

mister_monster 1y ago

Try Monerujo, stack wallet, or mysu (previously mynero) if you want to dive into using i2p for it, once installed its simple and works. There's also Anonero but that's kind of a DIY hardware wallet sort of solution and it's designed to use 2 devices, definitely not simple. I usually just go with monerujo personally.

zhenya 1y ago

Thanks mister. We went with monerujo. Clean little wallet.

makeasnek 1y ago

Governments have tried this before, and failed. There are many reasons for this:

1. Bitcoin is international. Your government can ban it all it wants, but the blockchain still keeps making more blocks regardless.

2. Technical censorship (blocking access to the network) is impossible to do perfectly. Things will slip through and people will still be able to access their Bitcoin, just with a few extra steps.

3. Bitcoin's market cap is 850 billion dollars. You are effectively sanctioning your own country by not letting it connect to this economy which ranks in the top 25 countries by GDP. The bigger Bitcoin gets, the more true that becomes.

4. Bitcoin's promise is more efficient payment systems. By not letting your country participate in this, you will be stuck using slow, legacy payment systems. This makes your economy less efficient, which makes it less competitive on the global market all else being equal.

5. There is a lot of international investment going into crypto technology. If you don't let people tinker with and use crypto in your country, you are going to miss out on that investment and the jobs it creates.

Lucky Kite 1y ago

1) This can change. Govnts agree on all sorts of things to consolidate power. If the EU/US agree to ban use of bitcoin, then it becomes less valuable elsewhere also.

2) doesn't matter because of 1) - you can spend only on dark markets, and they need to be able to change it for currency they can spend (food etc), so only in countries that allow bitcoin exchange legally.

3) True, but that's not a reason, wiping that out is actually GOOD for fiat currency. Countries ban certain foreign currencies to bolster their own. Banning bitcoin would wipe that and that would be good for fiat. At worse there will be as many winners as losers.

4) Visa is efficient. Its works fine. Bitcoin privacy is better but not good enough. Govnt's aren't not banning Bitcoin because they think its fast and efficient, no minister has ever thought that.

5) So, there's plenty of useful things govnts can invest in - you know roads/rail/hospitals/housing/manufacturing - actual things!

The OP was right to ask this question, and probably knows the answer: A govnt can block its use any time it likes with little consequence to the state. It probably won't though, because Bitcoin is a good Trojan horse, and a spying tool for govnts. It gives them immense control, and the bigger it gets the bigger the Trojan gets , until boom!

Lucky Kite 1y ago

Bitcoin is a zero day Trojan, the govnt are waiting for the right time to ban it. The bigger it gets the more power they will gain when they ban it,