The app didnāt tell me that and when I reopened it, the payment didnāt go through. How am I supposed to send sats from a custodial mobile wallet to Zeus then?
Discussion
Hit send in the other wallet and then switch to ZEUS so itās in the foreground
The other wallet says payment is still in the queue. Should I wait for it to fail?
You shouldnāt have to wait. Your other wallet will eventually refund you.
Okay it worked but I ended up paying about 20k sats in fees wtf thatās way more expensive than on chain
You get a channel lease from us for 10k sats using the just-in-time service.
Whereās 20k from? The other wallet? We arenāt responsible for fees other services charge you.
I tried to open an inbound channel like you said but it said I had no sats to pay for it. So I sent 11k sats to the wallet and it ate 10k. Then I sent 98k sats over, and it ate 10k sats. The other custodial wallet didnāt charge a single sat in fees.
So you had a second channel opened to you, because your first one didn't have enough capacity to receive the new amount you sent. By default, the just-in-time services gives you 100k sats of inbound on top of the amount you're looking to receive.
Whenever a new channel needs to be opened, the required fee is displayed clearly above the invoice QR.
If you want to be most economical, you can use the advanced channel service through the 'Purchase inbound channel' and specify the amount and duration you need so you can do long term planning.
As far as costs VS custodial. Yes, custodial wallet charges less in fees, but that's at the cost of control of your funds.
Duration of channel? What does that mean? Is this channel going to expire at some point? Yeah I see two channels and thatās not what I wanted. This is way too confusing
Yes, channels expire after some time, but you can renew them in the app.
As for the two channels, you donāt have to worry about them too much, you can use both of them together.
I have a small advice for you in the future. If youāre not sure what youāre doing itās always better to read the docs so you avoid mistakes especially if you deal with Bitcoin nostr:nevent1qqsy4svf3r4mvv57yutsahkst2yjxhutqsnn6pc4xwhws0pqtlffnlczyq73jv5nqt57u230dzm3hf4zl7wxg4ftajd7jge9d0sh2st6wllksqcyqqqqqqgmxu6zk
Dude Iām not a developer. I shouldnāt have to read all these docs lmao good UX should take care of this. I understand bitcoin and I have a basic understanding of lightning. I know you need channels and inbound/outbound liquidity. But thereās just way too much information here. And I understand why itās designed that way. Transparency is important but most of this info is overwhelming for the average user and a normie will never sit through reading all these docs.
The docs arenāt for developers! You havenāt even checked what I shared with you before you wrote this note š¤·āāļø
Docs are not for ordinary users. They are for devs or the die hard dedicated user. If you need me to look through docs, then the UX isnāt good enough. This is a book I read when I was working in digital marketing and itās helpful for developers trying to improve UX. It should be straight forward and intuitive. I understand that Zeus is trying to give users all of the options and control but this isnāt ideal for 99% of users. Thatās why custodial wallets dominate. Itās not just that itās cheaper, but itās braindead easy. Maybe add another option to create a wallet using an extremely simplified UX? I highly recommend this book to anyone that wants to improve UX of their app.
ZEUS v0.11 has a new Cashu wallet. You can get a Lightning address for free and have your a-ha moment on Nostr, with the ability to accept 1 sat zaps.
Then, as you wallet balance grows, ZEUS will provide educational material and prompt you to upgrade to a channel when economic self-custody becomes viable.
Sir, my 10 years old nephew just set up Zeus wallet after reading the docs without having any issues and sending my invoices on daily basis now
Congrats to him. We should just throw away standard UX practices and blame it on lazy users. Iām sure thatās how large tech companies like Google, Facebook, YouTube, and Amazon became as massive as they are. Let them eat docs.
This is one of those times when we have something great in our hands and we don't know what to do with it so we just start hating it š
We could say that its about the target userbase being considered by the wallet devs more than standard UX practices. We have so many options now, thanks to the network's open nature, that we don't need to be up in arms about this very much.
For the demographic of Bitcoiners who care about control, customisation and self-custody while using Lightning, Zeus is doing an incredible job. I love their UX. Blixt is a other option.
For people who sort of understand lightning and are okay with giving up a certain degree of customisation but still want self-custody, there's Phoenix.
Aqua is for people who want to minimise fees and maybe go between on-chain and LN very often.
Wallet of Satoshi for people who want to use a wallet without thinking about anything under the hood.
Blink gives a way to get access to Dollars while still using Lightning.
Strike is a great interface with fiat.
Cashu wallets for people who are okay with third parties as long as strong privacy guarantees exist.
Alby for people who want the proper LN experience with full control over literally everything from their desktop.
All of these services will likely exist side-by-side, make money (hopefully enough to become incredibly sustainable) and help people use Bitcoin in the way they see fit.
I don't think we will see a standard UX per se. It's going to be quite diverse.
nostr:npub1ghcetnluhryhynhuyj8s2pazldjm27wl40nu6dfeskvpv09twcnsneygat you come to me. Iāll help explain it easily.
I appreciate you. The point Iām trying to make is that if we realistically want the world on a bitcoin standard, the UX should be brain dead easy. I shouldnāt have to look through docs or speak with the actual team about the fact that the app needs to be open to send/receive payments or open a channel.
Agreed 100%. But also, you ever signed for a loan from a bank? Or opened a credit card? Lots of docs. Itāll become more user friendly with time, WE are still early.
You guys are both right.
Self-custodial Bitcoin UX has to get better, but it is progressing each and every day.
But at the same time, to use it to its full potential today you have to do some learning about the nuances. Thankfully there are tons of great resources if youāre willing to put the time in.
Self-custodial VS custodial is all about time preference. Have some pain getting started as youāre getting familiar with the concepts VS have much more pain when you can no longer access your funds.
š did you guys change something so the channels and duration or is that an app thing? My node channels have been open for years. The app only lets me ārentāchannels.
But Iām not signing a loan from the bank. Iām just trying to hold a small amount of sats for shitposts on nostr.
Right. But you are your own bank. If you want someone else to make it easier for you then custodial is the faster onboarding. But then you need to trust who youāre using. True privacy and self-sovereignty is a balance of convenience. Everyone has different tolerances.
Most people are inevitably going to be on custodial solutions anyway. Iām just asking for a simpler onboarding experience. I have Phoenix wallet and that feels much easier to use.
Hear you loud and clear. Weāre working on it.
Appreciate all the feedback.
I appreciate you not taking this an attack. I do love what Zeus stands for. Iāve had the app downloaded for like 3 years now. Listened to you guys more than once on the citadel dispatch. Every time I do, I reopen the app to try and use it but every time I open the app and try to set up the wallet, Iām just like wtf is all this info itās overwhelming. Where do I even start? So I close the app and say Iāll come back to it later because itās early and the UX should improve. But coming back to it years later still feels the same. Today I finally bit the bullet and just did what you said. It doesnāt feel great to pay all those fees without knowing that the channels will eventually expire. I donāt envy the UX work that you guys need to do but it feels like you just have to burn sats to learn or you have to have prior experience running a lightning node. I like the idea of making the current UX a more advanced option and adding a beginner friendly option that handholds you through the process. I highly recommend that book. I think improving UX can massively grow your user base.
Cheers. Thank you.
Tradeoffs. I prefer lightning over liquid. Iām dipping my toes in ecash, thereās a learning curve for sure. I think of L1 as my savings, L2 as my checking. Self hosted holds most of L2 and custodial gets a āper diemā spend that is okay if rugged.
Right now I prefer liquid. The custodial risk is small but trading with it is super cheap and intuitive. No need to manage channels or pay unexpected fees. When your liquid balance is large enough you can pay the fee to send it on chain.
Breez is similar to Phoenix, but better: phoenix devs knows who you are paying (because of their routing mechanism), Breez devs don't
You ended up doing everything the wrong way ā no surprise you had bad experience. Forget about the custodial wallet for now. Hereās how you shouldāve approached Zeus:
1. Start with an on-chain transaction to your fresh, empty wallet. You can send from cold storage or an exchange. Just make sure itās a decent amount ā I recommend at least 400k sats if youāre planning to use Zeus as your main wallet.
2. Wait for the transaction to confirm in a block. Once thatās done, youāll see a new option above your balance that says something like āMove sats to Lightning.ā Tap that to open your first channel.
3. Make sure to uncheck āUse LSP.ā This way you wonāt rely on Zeusā built-in liquidity service. Instead, youāll open your own channel ā no expiration date, and itās a lot cheaper.
4. Send at minimum 150k sats to open the channel. Pick a reasonable fee for the on-chain transaction ā lately, anything between 1ā3 sats/vbyte has been fine.
5. After setting the amount and fee, broadcast the transaction and wait for it to confirm. This might take a few minutes to a couple of hours, depending on network conditions ā just be patient.
6. Once it confirms, youāll have your own Lightning channel ready to use. Itāll show up in Zeus like in the screenshot below.
Keep in mind: at first, youāll have much more outbound capacity than inbound. That means you can send more than you can receive. Every time you send sats, your outbound goes down and your inbound increases. Eventually, once youāve got decent inbound, youāll be able to receive sats and re-balance your channel without needing another on-chain transaction. That, in turn, boosts your outbound again. It may look confusing at first but after you do it a couple of times it starts to make sense. Self custodial lightning is all about managing liquidity. Itās harder to learn but when you master it, youāll own all your payments and thanks to the built in mobile node of Zeus youāll have levels of privacy while transaction on par with Monero. And unlike custodial lightning, Zeus canāt rug you. Good luck!
Hoping this info gets integrated into the UX flow thanks š«
Iāve requested a video tutorial by nostr:npub1rxysxnjkhrmqd3ey73dp9n5y5yvyzcs64acc9g0k2epcpwwyya4spvhnp8. Hope he can come to it soon. But donāt wait for it, start experimenting and youāll see first hand the possibilities and limitations of lighting. Itās not perfect, but itās pretty powerful ones you get the hang of it. Become sovereign!
This is the most helpful material I have seen regarding Zeus. Thanks. nostr:npub1x9q89st049pnuym57ch9kqkgzcu5dmff32wduwc4g9gnc2w3nlls8hcsg7
Youāre welcome Timekeeper! Glad to be of help!
Thank you for the insights!
You went down the Zeus rabbit hole, just later to have to hear you did it wrong.
And if you vent out in their telegram group they will call you "lazy who don't want to learn"
Just use Breez+minibits and you will have zero headaches