Relays are only like bitcoin nodes in the bad way, they do not scale.
Unlike Bitcoin, every "node" can censor, and thus every large relay can be censored by the gov.
Relays are just servers. They are no more "decentralized" than traditional web servers, which you can also run yourself.
Nostr has no meaningful comparison to Bitcoin, which entirely different as a system.
Furthermore, relays fall into the same legal and moderation requirements as any cloud server or social media website. If caught failing to comply, then legal trouble...
Oh no. Im shaking typing this note.
🤣
You probably pay taxes on your bitcoin. Lol
Enjoy life as a retard.
John you clearly suffer from some kind of mental illness that makes you project your own insecurities onto others.
I would guess you have some deep repressed childhood trauma you're running from.
Don't you think its weird that anytime i try to criticize the protocol and tradeoffs, a bunch of people want to attack me personally?
Is anyone here capable of earnest debate?
Some people having it in real life struggle for having critized the entities in power that the person become silence .
Then your colleagues , your friends, your neighbour , your bank , started giving you little hurdle for small things then people you know avoiding you and Then the person learn that Silence is better .
People who said “
Good morning all the time , they have nothing to say “ ..😉 literally .
I thought the debate we were having was earnest, and I have seen other people here debate you earnestly. Sure this may not be a formal debate, and we may use words that are (mostly) not uttered in debates, but come on.
I don't think the personal attacks help, I agree with you but you can't just say that nobody on nostr is willing to entertain a proper debate
for anyone coming across this brainrot thread, know that this is a half truth. because right now, sure, most relays store events but it is mentioned in the protocol specs that relays should be dumb aka only relaying events and never storing them. therefore traditional cloud/social media legal and moderation requirements may not apply.
It doesnt matter who stores the data, you still need central points of failure, and thus a solution for including servers and indexers in the design.
exactly, that's the whole point, you don't have a single point of failure, instead you have multiple independent relays where your events could be broadcasted.
the more relays you post to, the lower the chances of your content being censored everywhere become.
John, you're a smart person. Which Nostr developer hurt you that made you want to have these takes?
People hurt him by not moving to pubky.
Which of those takes do you disagree with though?
-Bitcoin and Nostr are quite different systems?
-Nostr relays are analogous to web servers in many ways?
-Large Nostr relays can be censored?
Brash delivery to be sure, but none of those takes seem particularly out-there. I think many people here would accept all three.
I know my style is raw, but that example he is replying to is only a clinical explanation with none of my spice added.
He just wants to cut me down.
So here is some spice:
Maybe nostr people are just out of their league?
As a propped-up community of cheerleaders, with an allergy for criticism, learning became stunted and derivative.
The idols here are much less talented and experienced than anyone realizes, and are actually horrible stewards.
They just can't see it because they are so damn proud of themselves, and who is John to say differently? Just some jerk!
Hey, I know I am a smart person, but you don't seem to care, so, fuck you, right?
But I do care. That's why I'm questioning everything.
Try to think about the larger picture and look at it from the outside or another person's perspective. What do your actions solve?
If you want to help, this is not the way. I haven't seen any community outreach or attempts to work together or attempts at solving existing issues. Did I miss them?
To me, it looks like you want to be a dick and stir things up for laughs. If that's not the case then I'm sorry that I've misunderstood your actions.
From my perspective, it looks like you saw Nostr, said hey that's a good idea, I can improve upon it, but I want to do it on my own and not work with them. Again, did I miss something?
Because this reminds me of what Shitcoiners do. That's how I see all of this.
Besides, to take on the masses and change the world or save the world, if you want to get deep, we're going to need to work together. The adversaries are far greater than us put together. Why the fuck would we split efforts and fight one another? That's borderline dumb. And as I said. You're a smart guy.
Thanks John.
Derek, I have been discussing my vision for the web with fiatjaf since before nostr existed. Any notion that I am derivative or lack creativity in systems design would be intensely ignorant and ironic here.
The idea that I would just see a protocol and copy it is obnoxious, self-serving and lazy.
I have been researching & designing related solutions deeply for a long time. When I say things, they come from experience.
I compulsively share what I learn on all platforms that engage with it. Nostr seems to really like engaging with my criticisms, but they can't figure out how to do so in any way other than to insult and act out.
As far as working together, Nostr will need to learn that the cultism of Bitcoin does not map to the web. Because, like my popular post this week highlighted, people like me can't work with children offering fearful insults and tribal struggle sessions.
Until nostr gets comfortable with the idea that nostr is broken and dying, there's no point in tolerating this nonsense.
So what if I'm brutally candid, wtf reason is that to make it personal?
So what if I think your idols are hacks? You should be interested in why I am so sure!
Like I originally said, you're a smart guy. I know this. You know this. I followed you for years on Twitter, man. But I also sense you love arguing for arguments sake, because you know you're a smart guy. It's the typical geek with a chip on their shoulder scenario. You're brilliant. You are! You're also kind of a dick. And I think you know that too 🤣
So now I'm here trying to figure out what all of this solves and I'm coming up with nothing.
Nostr has many apps that are broken. You're right here! And I'm sure some aspects of the protocol could be improved. I may not understand this at the technical level as well as you or other developers, but I understand the concepts and I surely understand the real world scenarios. I've made it my mission to onboard users to Nostr over the last 2.5 years. I probably know better than most since I'm in the trenches here.
You don't have to tell me things are bad and need improvement. But I'm working with what I have. I'm trying to make it better. I'm literally doing that right now by having a conversation with you.
Our developers, whom I've met most, are all amazing, passionate and talented people. They're now close friends and people I generally have a good relationship with now. I love them.
Are they the most talented people on the planet and just mere hacks like you said? (I think they're talented and brilliant, but you may not.) I don't frankly care though. Why? Because they're the ones building and trying their best to make this all work. They're working together for a common good.
If I could help them in any way possible with their goals of building Nostr, I would, and I am.
What pubky needs is a professional representative who can communicate with the Nostr.
This guy is obviously highly intelligent but like Peter Todd, the pair of them are socially retarded and they just can't do it
What if I just think nostr design sucks and wanna explain why and how it should work instead?
I am not here to steal users, there are much better strategies for growth than coercing a cult.
What sucks about nostr's hex keypairs or npub/nsec format?
This is what needs to happen.
But to be clear, my intent is to find a way for us to work together. Division is dumb. We don't have enough users willing to leave legacy social media to do that.
Why not just implement pubky to increase nostr's censorship-resistance? It's an open protocol that is compatible with nostr. Why not just do it?
Maybe, just maybe you are too smart for this. And for us. I know a lot of smart people who are not paying any attention for simplicity. Because for them it’s already (too) simple and they stop caring about other who advocate for more simplicity. But on the other hand, I could assume you have a lot of self-knowledge and you already know this and have found a solution for this (I hope this solution is not by being a dick to everyone who disagrees with you). I hope you are ok with the idea that we can agree on things we disagree with.
I hate complexity and I am well-known for this on the Bitcoin side.
Nostr is not simple, it is incomplete.
Im not a hardcore Bitcoiner so Im not familiar with the work you have done there. IMO you also cannot compare bitcoin with nostr in any way.
As for the defimition. Simple if something different than simplicity. And incomplete yes, that’s true but to me that irrelevant regarding the complexitiy / simplicity of the protocol.
You cant complete the system without making it more complex.
Optimizing for "build an app in a weekend" is actually worthless if it is broken.
Im more of the approach where you need things more complex before you can simplify it. Same as you only can write a short letter by writing the long variant first.
And for completing things, it just need to be complete enough to get things working. If things are broken, we need more completion perhaps. This adds complicity. If things are working again, we can simplify. Till things are starting to break again ;)
* complexity (not complicity lol, Im starting to hussle things up)
O que vocês acham disso? O Nostr é **censurável**?
> Relays são como nós do Bitcoin apenas no sentido negativo: eles não escalam.
> Ao contrário do Bitcoin, cada "nó" pode censurar e, portanto, cada grande relé pode ser censurado pelo governo.
> Relays são apenas servidores. Eles não são mais "descentralizados" do que os servidores web tradicionais, que você também pode gerenciar.
> Nostr não tem comparação significativa com o Bitcoin, que é totalmente diferente como sistema.
How long have you been using nostr?
You sound like you have absolutely no idea how it actually works.
I'm kinda new here but I still have a much better understanding.
You can make your own relay.
You aren't being censored just because some individuals choose not to share your crap.
"You are wrong, i can tell because i am a noob"
Censorship resistance in Nostr is definitely a weak form of it but the system seems antifragile given the cryptographically linked userbase. We could use more tools to detect deliverability problems and measure common-neighbor (that we need to share a relay to communicate) efficiency.
Perhaps a DHT plus things like negentropy can help with scaling. There are definitely trade-offs when attempting to handle the bandwidth this sort of system could generate.
A single user's data is arguably "cryptographically linked" by signing, but not the userbase itself.
I don’t understand the technical stuff language , i assumed bottom lime is a thin
Borderline censorship is always exist both in Relays or centralised social media .
Except for relays or Nostr protocols that you have the ability to completely free censorship if : you hosting your own relay , your own media and file storage and make it private . You completely free censorship but NO ONE discover you .
Then why you are on Nostr ?? Pretty irony. .
Your understanding of nostr is incorrect. What you described is the same thing as web servers.
The reason I am here is because I enjoy sharing my experience and challenging myself.
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