i dont like when plebs bash monero...
thats the one crypto that has the same ethos as bitcoin with some extra perks and way fewer value
it is my btc laundering chain, btc goes in, wait a few days, btc comes out...
its quite the perfect btc anonymizer
Majority of the shills don't have the same ethos. They keep attacking #Bitcoin for many reasons. Like using ASICs, while knowing very well their shirtcoin can be attacked BECAUSE it's running solely on CPUs and (many of them don't even know this, on) GPUs.
This gonzo guy claims that Coinbase or another fiat gate can block a #BTC transaction to get exchanged for fiat. Yet forgetting to mention that Coinbase already block 100% monero transactions getting swapped for fiat. That's something a scammy shill would do to pump his bags.
I do a similar thing but using LN. Do you know why I prefer that? There's no need for a third party to exchange it. Just open a channel, drain it to another wallet(s), bring it back on-chain.
Also, and this is pretty important, monero (or any other "private" shirtcoin) writes every single transaction to the chain, FOREVER. That's quite long time. If/when a quantum computers become a thing, these blockchains will be readable.
Yes, we will have to upgrade #Bitcoin and everything else but all these blocks will be open to everyone for chain analysis. Except a solution that doesn't require a chain - #LightningNetwork.
This is something, none of these shills will tell you that. Nor they will tell you about the time, the transactions before RingCT.
TLDR: implement into your "laundering" strategy an extra step - the LN. Just in case. Don't trust random shills.
I don’t want to change to fiat, so who cares. In it for freedom from shitcoin exchanges and BS
Any exchange / bank etc is a centralised govt surveillance tool. I stack sats until I can’t. Those sats will only be used p2p with other forward thinking humans. ‘Build Back Better’ as the scum say, yes without them 🤙
ASICs have their own weaknesses. CPUs have their own weaknesses.
Your Coinbase example is exactly why Monero is fungible and Bitcoin isn't. You to allow it all, or allow none of it. In either case it is fungible with any other Monero coin. While Bitcoin is split into tainted and clean coins.
Your argument about teh conequences of writing to the chain forever applies tenfold to Bitcoin. It is completely exposed. *Right now*, not in some hypothetical future™, Monero completely hides amounts with ZK proofs and uses stealth addresses to hide receivers on chain. If quantum computers become a thing, that vulnerability is not unique to Monero.
You can actively monitor and probe most Lightning Network activity and save all that data to be used later to be quantum cracked as well. Not very different. While what you're saying about staying private on LN is true in theory, most LN users don't transact that way (ignorance? UX hurdles?). They are not concerned with privacy (Phoenix wallet). Additionally even more aren't concerned with self-custody (~90% WoS, Chivo, Bitcoin Beach). Lightning has better default privacy than on chain, but *right now* it is not better than Monero.
We can use DNMs adoption as a simple metric. No one uses Lightning. Monero will soon dethrone Bitcoin on there where privacy is priority #1 and everything is at stake
"ASICs have their own weaknesses. CPUs have their own weaknesses." - correct. Not many monero shills will say that. As well as not many will agree how easily it can be 51% attacked just by using the hardware, the governments already own.
"Your Coinbase example is exactly why Monero is fungible and Bitcoin isn't. You to allow it all, or allow none of it. In either case it is fungible with any other Monero coin. While Bitcoin is split into tainted and clean coins." - My Coinbase example was about to show that blocking a transaction at a fiat gate doesn't mean that #Bitcoin can be blocked. Read the whole thread if you want to jump in.
Also, learn what fungible means: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fungible
One BTC is always one BTC, no matter what some fiat gate thinks. The sats on the network (outside fiat) are still worth the same.
"Your argument about teh conequences of writing to the chain forever applies tenfold to Bitcoin." - applies the SAME to every blockchain out there.
"It is completely exposed." - It's not. Again, learn how #LN & #Liquid works.
"*Right now*, not in some hypothetical future™" - this isn't a hypothetical future, monero DOES write every single transaction on the blockchain RIGHT NOW. We just don't know WHEN it'll become readable.
"If quantum computers become a thing, that vulnerability is not unique to Monero." - have I applied it would?
"You can actively monitor and probe most Lightning Network activity and save all that data to be used later to be quantum cracked as well. Not very different." - there is a MASSIVE DIFFERENCE. In LN "you can". In Monero, "everyone does" hold all the information already.
"While what you're saying about staying private on LN is true in theory, most LN users don't transact that way (ignorance? UX hurdles?). They are not concerned with privacy (Phoenix wallet). Additionally even more aren't concerned with self-custody (~90% WoS, Chivo, Bitcoin Beach)." - correct. Privacy on LN is achievable to the same level as in monero. That was MY POINT, exchanging to a shirtcoin is pointless if I can use #Bitcoin - the absolute digital scarcity. What's wrong with Phoenix Wallet? Have I missed something?
"Monero will soon dethrone Bitcoin" - lol, every shirtcoiner says exactly the same.
"In economics, fungibility is the property of a good or a commodity whose individual units are essentially interchangeable, and each of whose parts are indistinguishable from any other part."
Bitcoin has unique histories, therefore is distinguishable from other bitcoin, therefore is NOT fungible.
A wiseman once said: "You don't ask nicely that everyone else not spend your coins; You just protect them using a cryptographic key.
Similarly, you don't ask nicely everyone else not distinguish your monetary units; You just make them *technically* indistinguishable AKA fungible."
https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/fungibility-graveyard/
*Right now* you cannot derive amounts or recievers on Monero. Senders is the weakest layer but is still probabilistic (~6% chance). I can actively probe LN and save that data if I wanted. You think chain analysis and governments are not doing that right now? Those who want to CAN do it. Remember, you brought up onchain vs offchain not me! It is nice to be ephemeral, and I would want both, surely, but I think it makes little difference in practice vs an active adversary. Encryption and ZKPs are more improtant.
How do Bitcoiners become Liquid shills? It is permissioned and trusted. It also only has 1 of 4 of Moneros privacy tech. And no one uses it for good reason! Pathetic anon set too. Far inferior tool for all these reasons.
Phoenix wallet is non custodial, but neither private nor trustless. They say so themselves. You aren't running your own node so naturally this would be the case it shouldn't be surprising.
Ok, ignore Wallet of Satoshi, Chivo, and Bitcoin Beach (the major ones)...But you are right technically! Blue Wallet is not custodial because they ended offering custodial lightning in April! LOL!
https://www.btctimes.com/news/bluewallet-will-no-longer-support-custodial-lightning-wallet-services
From 2020 to 2021, DNMs offering Bitcoin went from 98% down to 91%. Monero jumped from 45% to 79%. I showed you a clear and massive trend. Take a wild guess where things are at now in 2023.
One sat in the network is still worth one sat therefore FUNGIBLE.
*Right now* EVERYONE collects all information on the blockchain for a disaster to happen.
You can connect your own node to BlueWallet. LOL?
I like BTC times too. Here's one link for you:
https://www.btctimes.com/news/the-irs-is-paying-developers-to-crack-privacy-of-lightning-network
Yes, on the protocol 1 btc = 1 btc.
But in the practice, in the real world, where people can discriminate based on visible unique histories 1 btc =/= 1 btc. We live in the real world not on the protocol:
https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/fungibility-graveyard/#the-fungibility-graveyard
How many of those Blue Wallet users do you think run their own node based off that list? Lol. But okay whatever you can have the 100k Blue Wallet downloads. What about the other 1.6 million custodial downloads?
Sorry, this was done a year before Taproot activation. Keep up
I'm not saying people are NOT using custodial #LN wallets. Just pointed that things changed. Triggered much?
"The real world" do you mean fiat gates? I don't live there and you're already second monero shill that cares about the exchanges way too much.
If you're admitting the vast majority of people are using custodial LN wallets, then the vast majority of the LN network isn't private. ...Yes, I am extremely triggered 😂
When did I say anything about exchanges? It's not just about exchanges. Click the fungibility graveyard link and read thru it unless you are scared of the truth. Spooooooky!
If you're admitting the vast majority of people are using centralized exchanges, then the vast majority of the monero network isn't private. - that's exactly what you're saying.
What the real world means for #Bitcoin if not fiat gates??
i dont mean changing anything to fiat, i mean anonymising my btc thru monero
which part of what you said doesnt apply to bitcoin?
quantum computers will also see thru your technique...no?
i find that the harder a maxi is the more it is impossible to get a good comment about anything other than btc
do you really believe monero has no single perk that bitcoin doesnt have?
i look at it as simple as, scams and shills will always exist, on any field where money can be made. food, cars, tech, tools...pick anything
imo, eth is a perfect place for scammers and scammeds to meet, better there than btc
if only btc exists, all types of shit will meet onchain
let them meet somewhere else, i encourage anyone that wants to use any chain, just do you...if you loose, you loose...
"quantum computers will also see thru your technique...no?"
No. Can't read the blockchain on LN because there isn't any. LN isn't solely a #Bitcoin software, it can work on top of other chains too.
Agreed, shirtcoins are good for keeping scammers elsewhere. Also great testbed for new features. None of them are absolute digital scarcity, though. This includes monero too.
This is naive.
Most of the Lightning Network is run thru central hubs. You can easily probe and monitor most of the network and save that data for later. You just need to actively do it. Chain analysis companies and governments already do this.
This is naive.
This is how you sound like: Most of the monero exchange is run thru central entities. You can easily probe and monitor most of the network and save that data for later. You just need to actively do it. Chain analysis companies and governments already do this.
Instead of trying to attack #Bitcoin with silly links, learn how the #LN works. If one of five hops is going through a logging node, it doesn't mean where the payment started nor where it finishes.
Instead of posting a couple of useless links, tell me what exactly isn't correct here. Is there a blockchain, everyone is sharing? Go ahead:
"quantum computers will also see thru your technique...no?"
No. Can't read the blockchain on LN because there isn't any. LN isn't solely a #Bitcoin software, it can work on top of other chains too.
You don't need to have a blockchain to probe the network for data.
The links are for you to read because you seem to think Lightning is some impenetrable privacy fortress when it was designed around quick off chain payments. Any privacy is an afterthought or happy coincidence stemming from ephemerality of being off chain.
It also suffers from the same category of problems, optional instead of default privacy, just like Bitcoin. Meaning ignorance or friction involved will keep ~99% of users from using it semi privately. Using LN in any sovereign, private manner is definitely not for new users.
Let's take one of many metrics and get some insight into what users are downloading:
Custodial (no privacy)
Chivo ~1 Million
Wallet of Satoshi ~500K
BlueWallet ~100K
Bitcoin Beach Wallet ~100K
Non custodial (without node, not trustless, no privacy)
Phoenix ~50K
Breez ~10K
Non custodial (with node, potential privacy)
Zeus ~5K
Wow! How surprising!...
There is a reason no one uses Lightning on Darknet Markets.
You're wrong on two points. Everyone holds blockchain in monero forever. In LN, somebody would have to collect and store the data to have info from a single (one of many) hops.
BlueWallet isn't custodial. Keep up.
Only holds true to passive adversaries and only as long as they remain passive. Any adversary that cares WILL actively collect and store LN data. They already do this (chain analysis and governments). So little real world difference.
Blue Wallet WAS custodial lightning. They don't offer it anymore as of April.
But sure focus on the 100k downloads and ignore the other 1.6 million custodial downloads. lol. Virtually zero people use Lightning privately. Congratulations if you do, honestly. You walk the walk.
Don't get triggered, I just pointed to the parts you got wrong.
Again, every single monero node is collecting all the network information and will keep it as long as the network is running.
There's NOT such a thing on #Bitcoin #LN. There MIGHT be someone collecting and keeping information for long time, but NOT EVERYONE. Please confirm you do understand this point.
LN isn't just Bitcoin and it might one day be implemented into monero too because AFAIK, it cannot scale without L2.
Extremely triggered reporting for duty
It's a weak point, who cares, I already said you can have the 100k Blue Wallet downloads even though we both know 90% of them aren't running their own nodes. It's like you are concerned with a mouse on the floor and ignoring the custodial elephant in the room.
Again, every single monero node is collecting all the network information and will keep it as long as the network is running.
There's NOT such a thing on #Bitcoin #LN. There MIGHT be someone collecting and keeping information for long time, but NOT EVERYONE.
Please confirm you do understand this point.💜
💜🫶
i didnt say anything other than btc was scarce either
btc>crypto and thats it
but crypto can have uses as well
namely, stack more btc from weaker hands 😁
