Yes, and?
Discussion
I really suspect that the effects of prayer are strikingly similar to the effects of meditation. As a formerly devout Christian person I can affirm that my assertion is absolutely correct in my case.
I would suggest that that is because grace always builds on nature. So when you pray, it is reasonable to expect that it has an effect on you on the natural level, as well as the supernatural.
Often, the supernatural is mediated through the natural. I don't think we can always reasonably separate them, especially when it comes to subjective experience.
Now THIS I can understand because I do daily meditation.
It's just the strict adherence to religious texts that I don't understand. Even when I went to a Catholic elementary school I would feel absolutely nothing when we prayed. 🤷♂️
Ew.
The point of prayer isn't to "feel" something. That's gross. Yuck.
Doesn't matter. It never did anything for me.
Sometimes God does allow us to feel something in prayer, though. If you haven't felt anything, that doesn't mean the prayer didn't "work" though.
My point is that it's gross to consider "feeling" something to be the point of spiritual discipline and communion with God. That's some wishy washy post-romanticist BS that I, for one, find detestable.
It's not the end, but don't hate on it too much, as it can be a helpful morale boost along the way.
That's still really gross, so no. Feelings are fleeting and chasing a feeling is the cause of so much sophistry and the base of a lot of satanic undermining of faith. No thanks.
You're a real hardliner on this one, aye Beave?
I detest most religiosity based on feelings, and that pretty much means Christendom at this point, since it has been subverted expertly by the powers that be. Feelings are the dumbest measure of anything, good or bad.
Actually detesting Christendom sounds like an idea that must be personally difficult. I don't think that makes sense... I mean I think it would take its toll on me so that must be difficult on you Beave.
Uh, no. It's liberating. Knowing that most Christians are shallow, fake, blinded idiots is rather comforting since I know them and they is me.
Like, I'm an idiot, but I grew up in NYC, so I've got really, really good BS detection.
95% of Christendom is awful.
But God still loves the church, and, therefore, He still loves Me, despite everything I am not and could have been.
I'd say like 95% of people are fake and the odds of finding a little less fakeness can be greatly increased in a decent church.
I haven't been in/seen a decent church in decades.
I haven't looked to hard, to be fair.
What is a church aside from an ideal collated community? The whole idea of a god is so, so flawed, and the codex Christendom clings to is antiquated mythology that the community itself can’t agree on. Have any of you really asked why having a god is so important to you, and why the “father” figure you choose is an uncaring sadomasochist? There is some heavy fear and childhood psychology to dig into here….
*sighs* and you sound *so* superior...
I'm not sure my sardonic mood is coming through clearly, and it's not meant to be directed at you, personally, Jac, but, gosh you sound like a smug know it all prick when you say that.
Whatcha got that's better than God? Nuffin. A fat lot of empty sophistry. I'm truly sorry you were seduced away from the fullness of your faith by such hokey BS.
It’s cool, I like you and even if I didn’t, I would admit I can be an arrogant pedantic prick at times. I do think questioning faith and studying anthropology is important though.
I'm also a pedantic prick, so that's cool.
Questioning is good. Abandoning your faith is hard for me to fathom.
The answer may lie in anthropology. It did for me, look for the basis of religion in ancient civilization. The complexity has increased an amount incomprehensible for many people, but the roots remain the same in my opinion. Find your truth, I’m not anti-religion, there is an appropriate context, I’m just trying to illuminate potential options because organized religions have no incentive to provide any options.
Anthropology, in general, is mostly sham "science" and speculation. All of the similarities in all the various world religions, with the exception of Christianity, IMO, are much more easily explained by there being one source for all of it, and, hint hint, it ain't God, nor is it good. I find very little profundity in all of that, so, I'm not really going to accept your explanation, at least not on that basis.
Well, anthropology is the study of humankind and the culture we created. If that isn’t at least interesting to you, I don’t know what else to say. I’m interested in religious dogma even though I disagree with every one that I’m familiar with so far. If you need a god, find one. Rock on!
I already have, thanks. I pray that you find Him again.
I'd love to have a conversation about these topics if you'll refrain from casting aspersions about undiagnosed psychological problems.
If we're both in pursuit of truth, let's explore that together.
Ok, let’s zoom way out for a moment. God is all knowing, all powerful and the creator of humanity and everything else. We are “children” of god, created in his image and he loves us. Adam gets lonely hanging with his Dad in the garden so god half asses a companion, meanwhile some angel named Lucifer is plotting against god, god knows it, and could stop it, but he thinks it might be fun to watch so he sits back and lets Eve make contrary mistakes which he then holds his children accountable for. Ever since, Lucifer prowls around making everyone suffer like a sadistic child molester in a kindergarten, while god sips margaritas on the shores of heaven. If, while you are suffering you kiss the contrived ring, Jesus, passionately enough, because god is too good to talk to any of us soiled creations now, as a result of his errant other creation, Lucifer, you might be admitted into the forever resort, heaven. Ridiculous mythology, and not even GOOD mythology. Meanwhile we have women pastors, transsexual pastors, homosexual pastors….none of which do I personally have any issue with whatsoever, but the holy book that they claim does not mince words about any of that being acceptable. It’s like a choose your own dogma and call it whatever you want circus. I was raised fundamentalist Christian. I had eight versions of the Bible and had read and cross referenced them by the time I was ten. My parents did not spare the rod, and died fearing god. I hope for their sake there is a heaven, because otherwise they lived miserable lives for no reason at all.
A few responses:
1. Why do you say God "half-assed" a companion for Adam in Eve? How is another being with whom Adam can create new life in love an afterthought? We look for companions like ourselves. In the Garden, Adam had no companions like to himself, so God creates for him another human being like himself, but also free and distinct. Eve could give Adam what no animal could give: the love of an equal.
2. Genesis makes it clear that man is created in God's image. What is God? God freely creates the world and populates it with creatures. So if man is created in God's image, then man must also be free to create and govern. Man participates in creation most fundamentally by creating children (new life) and bringing it forth into the world; and, unlike the animals, man can freely choose whether or not to mate and bring forth offspring. Likewise, Adam is put in the garden to cultivate it, with a command to "fill the earth and subdue it," so man is given authority to govern the created world. Thus, we have man, like an echo of God in miniature, able to freely create and govern.
3. Going back to point 1, we look for beings like ourselves to love. God created us as beings like Himself (as like as a creature can be to its Creator), and invites us to loving relationship with Him. That's why Adam's sin was so devastating: Adam was given authority over all the earth so that he could be a friend to God, and he rejected that friendship by breaking the trust God had given him. Yes, Lucifer was plotting against man from the beginning, but Adam was free to reject Lucifer's temptation and maintain his relationship with God just as much as he was free to listen to Lucifer and break that divine friendship. Ever since, Lucifer only has power over the earth because Adam, to whom the earth was given, abdicated that authority.
4. God doesn't just sit back "sipping margaritas on the shores of Heaven," nor does He stay aloof from us as if we are too soiled and broken to be worth His notice. That's the whole Good News of the Gospel. God literally becomes one of us in Jesus, subjecting Himself to the chaotic, broken creation left in the wake of Adam's abdication, and lets us mock, beat, and kill Him. God is clearly not hands-off, nor does Jesus sit back waiting for us to "kiss the contrived ring." He's right here in the muck suffering with us.
So yeah, life is pretty miserable, but God joins us in the misery and still tries to restore that friendship that Adam lost.
Perhaps your past experience with Christianity overemphasized God as Judge, but there's a lot more to it, that's the whole point of the Gospel.
You are really tempting me to dig out my leather bound, Jesus text in red NIV Bible, but the point was to look at the dogma not from the perspective of a believer in the dogmatic box, but as a skeptic.
1. In no way are women portrayed in the Bible as equal. New and Old Testament, show me where god invited women to clergy.
2. So if man is free as god is free in his own image we can choose to abolish the influence of satan, or even to subdue the angel of darkness, but wow, that would be heaven on earth wouldn’t it? Joining the Jehovah Witness theology soon? You’ll still have to wait as that doesn’t happen in their book until after Jesus scoops up his cultists, sends those with unforgiven inequities to hell, and remanufactures the earth into heaven.
3. How in the world can the choices of a creation be disappointing to an omnipotent being? This would insinuate that god respects us, but frankly the guy can’t even bring himself to communicate with us directly. This doesn’t answer the question, why would an omnipotent being even allow Lucifer to exist? Even balanced good and evil theologies make no sense, the only higher power I can even start to believe exists from an intellectual standpoint is one that is pure evil. The tortured soul deity is the least plausible of all of them.
4. Ok, Jesus spends 30 years living in the flesh of man, or was it god? Anyway, 30 years and a crucifixion makes god sympathetic to the woes of a creation tortured generation after generation by Lucifer, a being the father allows to persist? Really? What kind of masochist believes that? Mock beat and kill him? Poor baby. I’ll do far worse if I ever get the chance, death won’t even be on the menu. Here, take the good news of the gospel and suffer some more. I, as god could fix all of it in a flash, but nah, Eve and Adam ate the apple so you’re all screwed until I decide it’s time to only torture a few of you, those who didn’t sufficiently kiss my ass, for eternity. No man, if you could choose to not suffer, or as an even more powerful analogy, prevent your children from suffering you would, but this god you believe in as god or Jesus is an asshole through and through. He watches suffering every day, has the power to stop it supposedly, and does nothing.
Thanks for taking the time to respond, I have no desire to disrupt or disturb your faith, but frankly if you step in the ring with me you have to expect a dialogue will ensue. Fair enough?
I appreciate the responses! You needn't worry about disturbing my faith, but I do appreciate some dialogue. It definitely seems to me that your understanding of the faith is incomplete, so I'll respond to your points and questions further and perhaps we can have further productive discussion, though I certainly don't claim to know all the answers.
1. Regarding women and men being equal, why is it that being clergy is the criterion for equality? That is a rather arbitrary measuring stick to choose.
2. Man is free today to choose God and reject Satan's influence, and if everyone did that, that would indeed bring about the Kingdom of Heaven on earth; I totally agree with that assessment. The thing is, even though we could choose God, we still don't, so here we are.
3. It doesn't follow logically that, just because God is omnipotent, He would have no reason to be saddened at the choices of the free beings He created. If He wants us to act freely, and we do stupid stuff despite all His help towards the good, well, just making us be good would override our freedom and kind of defeat the whole point. Evil exists because God respects our freedom (and that of the angels, too, they were created as free, rational beings).
4. As I said above, if God wills us to be free beings, then that means He allows us to choose evil, and, of course, evil will bring about suffering. God could eliminate suffering, but that would also eliminate freedom. We're all on Nostr, so I'd imagine we all agree that freedom is pretty high on the hierarchy of values. Is allowing freedom worth it if the possibility of evil is a consequence?
I guess a question is, if you were God, what would you do differently? You want human beings to be free, but they abuse that freedom by cutting themselves off from your friendship and doing all manner of unspeakable evil to each other. Sure, you can repair all that evil, but that undoes the whole work of creating free beings in your own image in the first place; coerced love is no love at all.
As I said before, the thing God does is He suffers with us. If you can't fix a problem, sometimes the next best thing is just solidarity. Maybe that's not satisfying to you right now, but I'd challenge you to come up with anything better.
I believe that God wills the salvation and eternal happiness of every person, but He's not going to force it on us. The thing is, though, if we reject God in favor of our own devices, we tend to drag ourselves down even to the point of creating Hell on earth, and human history is more than sufficient proof of that.
It seems that you're really mad at God, or at least of some caricature of God. You're approaching it as a skeptic, and I'm answering as best I can by trying to at least provide a more complete picture of what the Church really professes. I don't expect to change you're mind, but I do hope we can come away understanding each other's positions better, at least.
i tried to read the book of Daniel last night, and i'm supposed to believe this guy has prophetic powers that don't still leave him in the category of "false prophet" due to the clear conniving, tricky and vicious things he also does. And the fact he's supposedly vegan.
I'm now convinced that the angels, and the God - and the Devil and his flock are ancient humans with very far out technology, and one group wanted to gently induct the rest of humanity, and the other group raped and enslaved the rest of the humans.
even as i read Daniel, before the part where he gets Nebuchanezzar killed, it twice mentions "the watchers", which according to my understanding, are those "fallen angels". they even come down in a spaceship from the sky ffs, before 6 chapters.
the jesus story is a mess, also. there is a jewish revolutionary who was trying to liberate palestine from teh Romans. he almost succeeds, but then fails, and the bitchy jews turn on him and demand he be hung up on a cross, and prefer to free a vicious piece of shit murderer.
again, i'm not antisemitic, but the jewish clergy in charge of the modern state of israel seem to be the self same mind as these ones, and this whole story is a fabrication that has mashed up a historical character with someone who seems to have strange high technology powers such as to see someone is in a light coma and wake them up. or to heal paralysis.
teh whole thing is so confusing top to bottom that i'm now convinced that indeed the bad guys are in control but that literally 2000 years ago, these angels showed up, and the leader went down and fired off a whole legendary story line, took out a bunch of the remaining Watchers, and return to the heavens from whence he came. Also, it clearly says in both the bible and the Qur'an that the angel Gabriel (remember, human) artificially inseminated mary, and that all this about "god" being born into the flesh was really about them doing an experiment to interbreed, that the head angel, had a baby with a very special woman, apparently, and apparently that was ok with her husband, and supposedly these two never copulated... but i can very much believe if it's the high tech humans storyline, that this was all aimed at flushing out and eliminating the last of the Watchers.
the watchers, aka annunaki, are the fallen angels, and their leader and his close entourage, including such characters as leviathan and behemoth and others, were all caught and placed inside a kind of prison that prevented them from leaving but it still allowed them to reach out with their telepathy.
these demons are the ones who communicate with their chosen priests, such as Klaus Schwabb and Bill Gates (margaret sanger, the rothschilds, etc etc) and uses his psychic powers, developed with their fancy high tech, to give them information and to orchestrate their action.
this jesus guy, born from a common human woman among the jews, while the romans had conquered palestine, also is coming back, because the cunning plans of Satan, aka Saturn, aka Chronus, and his gang of ghouls stuck in Tartarus remote controlling their chosen representatives, have to be given their final judgement, and everyone who went along with them has to be removed.
after jesus wiped out the watchers, they no longer hand spacecraft running arounds doing miracles and giving their chosen puppets the power to create the ongoing harvest of innocent humans, and ever since then they have been super pissed at jesus, and this is enshrined in the books of modern judaism. the lowly carpenter, half breed of angel and man kicked their arses and he and his dad are coming back to finish the job, and so the whole work, the "great work" as the illuminati named it, probably the freemasons too, another puppet organisation, is all about total enslavement.
now, if we first mention that all this apparent suffering actually can be reversed, and that our great grandpappy up in the sky and his boy haven't been idle the last 12000 years since the titan wars saw this big daddy banished to space (you can find out about this story in the titan wars), and you read revelation 20 something, i think it is in 20, maybe 21, where the angel reproaches john to not worship him, as he is "just like us" and also mentions all the faithful and saintly and good people of the world... again... if you understand that all of these angels and demons are actually humans, with high tech, then a whole lot of things start to make a lot more sense.
i know it all might sound crazy and i'm just working on a hunch garnered over more than 4 decades on this planet, but the idea that all these religions are cargo cults from advanced people fits like a glove and also implies that we are "not alone" in the universe but also, technically, we are under the guardianship of our advanced ancestors who are keeping a diseased population from getting out of the gravity well and finding other primitive people across the galaxy and universe to rape and enslave, it makes a very neat kind of sense and fits perfectly with so many seemingly disparate records.
oh shit, gary busey and stella are in this thread.
well, good, i like it that i offend both christians and atheists and jews with all of this. but i'm out, after this one too.
Bravo! Bravo! If you stay steady with the narrative and find a few acolytes to spread your gospel you too can have your own religion in a few years! Example, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. They created the Ladder Day Saints, Mormon church based on the commandments of god coming to the new world on tablets of pure gold. They also promoted other *wholesome* beliefs such as polygamy, child brides, male god status (when you die you get your own harem and planet to populate by yourself), and a 10% of your income resort fee to have a membership card. All this, have you seen the temple in SLC?; by riding the shirt tails of the last successful salvation scheme, the Catholic Church. In all seriousness though, thank you for sharing. It’s an interesting take, and who knows? You just might be right.
Cool sci-fi bro
Seriously, though, while there is some weird stuff in the Bible worth talking about, it's probably best to start a new thread for that particular strand of exegesis.
I've felt alot in prayer at various points in time and very little in others. But the main point should be to try to bring one's self into alignment with what God is doing within us and within the world, to increase our desire to be in His presence through enhanced understanding of His goodness. The feelings are probably irrelevant, but it all does become harder without them.