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We have found a way to overcome our tribal impulses. It was called liberal democracy and pluralism. We built institutions that facilitated the peaceful resolution of disputes, and the basis for economic exchange.

The people who want to tear these institutions down and replace them with “pure capitalism” or some nonsense like that, have no idea of the forces they’d be unleashing.

That’s all correct, to an extent. How do you explain the world wars and the constant forever wars we currently have under that framework?

The 20th century witnessed the most mass killing in human history. Some estimates put it close to 200M systematically killed by some form of government action. Around 50M died in WW2 alone.

I’m a fan of the progress made my liberal democracies and rule of law. Historical documents like the manga carta and Constitution are incredibly powerful and important. But if this is as far as we can go towards peace and prosperity, I’ll be very disappointed, especially considering the current potential for another global violent conflict on the horizon. I think we can create social structures which can produce even better results, and Bitcoin is one of them.

I think people overstate the case about the “constant forever wars”, quite honestly. And I say that as someone who is a harsh critic of US foreign policy. The reality is that the period starting at the end of World War II, all the way up to today, has been the most peaceful time in most of the history of civilization.

Civilization itself, going all the way back to the Roman Empire has been a forever war. We have existed in an era of the Long Peace. Sometimes called the Pax Americana.

The number of people dying in wars has been in precipitous decline. So when people act like this so-called “American Global Empire” has been an unmitigated war machine that has made the world a far more violent place, I actually don’t know WHAT THE FUCK they’re talking about.

Here’s a chart of the last hundred years of people on this planet who have died in wars.

Liberty Farmer 2y ago

Deaths do not equal peace. Warfare has changed, bombing drones, satellite surveillance, high altitude and unmanned aircraft. Tank tech, cyber warfare, UN and NATO help, and on and on.

This is irrelevant. I agree with you that the US has done evil. I’ve criticized it. But it’s so fucking ahistorical by any standard — I don’t give a fuck HOW you define war — to suggest that the last half of the 20th century through the oughts and teens of the 21st haven’t been the most peaceful in the history of recorded civilization.

And thinking that if you just take America out of the equation and everything would have been so much more peaceful because you think that the only thing fueling war is the profit motive of the military industrial complex is so naive, and so geopolitically ignorant, that it’s nausea-inducing.

The idea that America is the principle agent in all conflict, and that conflict will subside fi the US was defanged is ridiculous. There are so many geopolitical tensions built in historical, cultural and religious animosities that have nothing to do with the US. And if anything, it’s been the US’s shadow that has kept some of those conflicts at bay. And we’re seeing some of them flare up as we speak!

Liberty Farmer 2y ago

Woah, easy there anger man.

I didn't say anything about America.

I said that people dying from war has nothing to do with there being peace or not.

We don't just send troops to the battlefield blindly anymore like in WW1 and WW2 and even Vietnam. Technology has changed war forever.

See swearing works! 😜😂

I have no fucks left to give, right now. I'm alarmed by the geopolitical risks I see, and I think people need to wake up from their luxury narratives.

“He who would attempt to do great things, should not do them alone”

The world needs you to give a fuck and there are people who still believe in the song you sing.

It’s systemic risk Mike. I think your timeframe is incredibly misleading - liberal democracy has been established since the 18th century. I don’t disagree that we’ve had a relatively peaceful period of history, especially in the Western world, since WWII. But I think it’s undeniable that the structure of the system is cycling back towards chaos and destruction, as you seemed to agree with.

Here’s a chart of the bank failures since 2008. Looks oddly similar to your battle deaths chart. From a structural, foundational perspective, the current monetary and governmental system is designed in a way which creates great death, destruction, and poverty when there shouldn’t be any. I would rather have consistently more localized and individual crimes with slow increases in prosperity over time than massive top down controls causing booms and busts, both in prosperity and in safety.

I agree the risk of chaos is alarming. What actually makes me angry is people who think we should just let our institutions fail and prepare for what's next, cross our fingers and hope we survive the chaos.

We agree on that.

I’ll ask you the same thing I asked nostr:npub12rze589jx0gg6kslkjfl2gxxkhtlw73t5shyve5qrglrv6c2qflqejj7ns though.

If you don’t like people claiming Bitcoin is a solution to these systemic flaws in our system of money and government, what do you think we should do?

Crossing our fingers and hoping is something we both agree is useless - so what other action would you recommend people take to save our institutions and prevent violent collapse? Would Bitcoin not be one of the best paths in achieving that goal?

Of course, I believe bitcoin to be one of the tools. Our lack of trust in our institution is the major risk that I am concerned with,and that is what I think we are talking about here. The idea that bitcoin will lead us to Eden, wherein our institutions are dissolved and the US no longer provides stability and a counterweight to chaos, is where I get off the hopium train.

Maybe we’ve both been arguing based on false pretenses then. I don’t think that Bitcoin can dissolve all institutions, nor do I think it would be desirable, at least not for many decades.

I just think that it will make institutions better and more accountable to the people. If government were actually just a system of rule of law and management of utilities which suffer from the tragedy of the commons, I would be a huge supporter. Some form of social structures are necessary and beneficial.

I’d argue that things like mining pools, lightning service providers, and Bitcoin banks are forms of new institutions. That’s not a bad thing, because people actually demand them for the things that they are doing.

I think the “hopium” train can take you very far, quite far from the established way of doing things. You obviously understand that, because you’re communicating on Nostr and talking about Bitcoin. I personally would rather be extremely hopeful of the change that we can accomplish with freedom technologies and advocate for them, than worry people are getting too hopeful and detached from our current, much more grim reality.

Here’s the chart updated to include March of this year:

Do you see my point and my concern?

When you are engaged in a discussion and debate with someone and you tell them to kindly go fuck themselves because they disagree with your worldview, don’t you see that you are reacting to your base emotions? That you are so firm in your beliefs that you are willing to react to your most base emotions. Now transpose those same things onto your larger tribe and you will understand why people act in ways that you yourself have identified as abhorrent.

“Kindly go fuck yourself” is a term I steal from nostr:npub1mc20uche0cy599vpl850aschpu7wteundgsnf0msep79lu3fu5aq3r4ptv and it typically means that we have an irresolvable ideological difference. It does not mean that I don’t see you as a friend, a fellow human, and someone who is worthy of living freely on this planet.

I personally will never be part of a group atrocity. I refuse to pick up a gun and kill a fellow human who has never harmed me. I refuse to accept that I am defined by some group label more than I am defined by my individual actions and beliefs.

I do react to my base emotions. As you can see, I am very passionate about this. And I apologize if my language made discourse impossible. You’re right for calling me out, I shouldn’t use language to provoke or offend.

If I transposed my beliefs and feelings onto everyone it my “tribe”, I think we could establish peace and prosperity much faster. Unfortunately, I am limited to only being able to communicate my beliefs verbally and economically to others, with the hopes that they will follow. This is one of the downfalls of trying to establish voluntary and peaceful social interaction.

no₿ody™ 🧱 2y ago

Too many wards gfy 🥴

In a world without institutions to mediate “irresolvable ideological differences” what happens? Does bitcoin solve this?

The Servile Statist 2y ago

Depends on what the difference is.

I cannot steal your money based on ideological differences, and I have an incentive to let differences which don’t violate the rights of either of us just be what they are.

I honestly don’t even think we have differences big enough that we need mediation, Bitcoin or no Bitcoin, but on the scale of the entire society, Bitcoin does serve as a tool to encourage peace and cooperation.