Nostr Web Client

Have buisness idea

Dont have funds now but want to be on the market first.

Impatience greed and circumstance will continue to exist

Laeserin 1y ago

Yes, but what happens when they default? Who pays remainder? Insurers, backed by taxpayers? Do lenders just co-finance defaults from other loans? But then imagine how tempting it would be to default on such onerous loans, and how expensive the other loans would be. Wouldn't that eventually squeeze the profitability out of almost all lending?

Like, you'd have to find some place that increases by 30%+ in size every year and has a veritable monopoly that they can sustain for years. How do they sustain the monopoly, when they can make Bitcoin that easily?

And you can't tell who they are, at the beginning. VCs usually throw money at a bunch of different projects and see what turns up. But how long could you throw Bitcoin around? Are we just assuming that they never run out of money?

Maybe I am just too stupid to understand how this is supposed to work. 🤷‍♀️

I had assumed Bitcoin would make such things unprofitable and we would end debt servitude. But it's like, we will just have bigger, more onerous debts, in the hardest currency possible, while prices are falling.

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ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

default risk is part of why there is a premium required to borrow

with no "lender of last resort" people would just have to be more prudent, it'd be like taking the training wheels off the bicycle, you aren't gonna keep riding with them on, are you?

Laeserin 1y ago

I just don't see how the premium wouldn't grow over time, as the defaulted debt piled up. You couldn't keep rolling it into the interest on the next loans for long, before those loans became untenable.

You would probably need an insurer and he would need a reinsurer, and the reinsurer would need the state and/or a manipulated currency.

That's the next question, how to finance insurance? Insurance currently finances itself over dues (they could still get that) and over investment (which means they'd have to run the same lending game as the people they're insuring) and over government backstops (taxpayer bailouts, inflation).

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

lol, all these safety measures... no, you have to change the culture about this, that's why it works in the middle east, because nobody even tries to get a loan without high confidence of being able to pay it off

and there is also equity financing too, this is another type of loan that becomes more common in a hard money system without usury, where the project is of benefit to many and the default risk is distributed across the pool of lenders

scaling does cost more trust and has a higher risk, which is also why you see these multi death gigacorporations these days, they couldn't exist without the government protecting them from being prosecuted for all kinds of sins

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

also, have you ever borrowed before?

i haven't, and i never will, unless i'm really confident i'm on a winner

debt litigation is nasty

Laeserin 1y ago

Only debt I ever had was a mortgage and we had it during the big housing crisis and couldn't refinance, even though house prices were falling because we already had a low interest rate. Absolute nightmare.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

yeah, i personally don't see any reason to get a loan for anything... if i can't stack enough to do it, it can't be done, that's my rule

Laeserin 1y ago

We moved, after 5 years, and we were so relieved to just be able to sell the house and not walk away in a hole. Lots of people couldn't sell because they were upside-down on their loans.

Under Bitcoin, almost everyone would be upside-down on their loans.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

it's a bit like falling off your bike when the training wheels are removed, strong learning motivational psychology kicks in

Laeserin 1y ago

Everyone is so casual about chronically upside-down loans, but I suffered under one and they caused widespread unrest. That is some seriously nasty shit.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

and just like that, it was the last time you rode fast on a gravel road, gravel rash will do that to you

Laeserin 1y ago

The culture only changes if there is some understanding of why we shouldn't want interest-bearing loans to be widespread and why nonrecourse (fully-collateralized) loans, equity financing, grants, profit-sharing, or simply paying for things are almost always the better option.

Most normal people can't see any downside. It seems like free money and you get to do your own thing and be Mr. Big Playa. They can't even understand the basics of how Bitcoin works or how Nostr is a protocol.

We can't do like Muslims do and just issue a fatwa or basta. People will want to know BUT WHY?

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

agreed but nothing like a live demonstration right?

bitcoin lets you have a bubble of hard money economy and when everything else is failing we are all building our citadels and hiring our private security to patrol the borders of our villages and they'll get it

Laeserin 1y ago

Well, I guess so, but I can at least inform other Christians that this sort of thing was eschewed for most of our history, even if it isn't considered outright sinful, for good reason.

It's the easiest way to make money, once you figure out how to privatize your gains and socialize your losses. Just need some clever AI crunching the numbers.

And they always figure out a way, in the mid-term. And then you have sunk costs and rigid structures and just sit there, watching everything collapse in slow-motion and wondering what happened. Bitcoin would just speed up the collapse.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

this is what i mean when i say there's no point in participating in the rigged game of democracy

the game has been long utterly controlled by the plutocrats who own the banks who pay the government to make the rules suit them

the sooner atlas shrugs the sooner the world has to deal with its sins

Laeserin 1y ago

Christians used to get their interest-bearing full-recourse loans from the Jews and then they would just murder the Jews or run them out of town, when they got tired of paying them back. It was a whole, macabre economic cycle.

Let's just not do that, this time. 😅 🤷‍♀️ Just save up and pay for the stuff you want and stop pulling consumption forward.

DataNostrum 1y ago

Taking out a Bitcoin-denominated loan seems like a very risky proposition. It's equivalent to shorting Bitcoin

Laeserin 1y ago

Especially a large loan, that gets paid back over years or decades. Once you add "time" as a large factor, under falling prices and with risk of default rising over the life of the loan, it's like,

How is that a sustainable business model?

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

this is how free market hard money interest rates arise - through the combination of the amount of reserved money being used for lending, versus the rate of failure of loans, it's pretty simple math to come out with a living from it, but it is risky at first until you get a measure of your default risk rate

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

keep in mind, as you observed yesterday, or the day before, money that is in cold storage has a different character to cash on hand and savings (which are a little harder to dig at)

Low Information Voter 1y ago

Your default rate as a loan shark is substantially the product of your demonstrated capacity for violence. Your own, or via privileged access to a State's capabilities.

DataNostrum 1y ago

The difference is that you don't easily lend money that you can't print at will. Lending under a bitcoin standard will involve much more due diligence, possibly the lender would almost always prefer to be an investor instead

Laeserin 1y ago

Or even get a seat on the board.

Bored Satoshi 1y ago

Under the Bitcoin standard, people will still borrow Bitcoins to buy houses or other assets. These loans will be cheap, like 0.5% rather than 5% and they will have high liquidation penalties.

Example: You have 5 Bitcoins and you want to buy a house worth 10 Bitcoins. The market value for this house right now is 10 Bitcoins. The loan issuer will happily accept the house as collateral and give you the loan. You both agree to use a market analyst who estimates the value of the house at any time. Right now it is 10 Bitcoins. And you agree to liquidate the house if the debt value + liquidation penalty (say 1 Bitcoin) > the value of the house.

You are now 5 Bitcoins in debt with 5% interest rate.

You are right to assume that the value of the house COULD go down in value with respect to Bitcoin over time if the value of Bitcoin keeps going up. In 2 years, say the market analyst says the value of the house is 5.5 Bitcoins and you are still 4.5 Bitcoins in debt. You made a bad investment.

So this triggers a liquidation where the issuer sells your house for 5.5 Bitcoins and will keep the entire amount as the penalty is 1 Bitcoin.

I don't see a problem here. Do you?

Ideally you do not want to buy a house by borrowing Bitcoin unless you believe the house will outperform Bitcoin in 10 years. Which might happen by the way, Bitcoin cannot keep going up with respect to every other asset in the world. Some real estate will definitely outperform Bitcoin once it reaches the $100T range.

Now, why would you take a loan in Bitcoin? Because there are no other currencies in the world still standing. The issuers will only issue loans in Bitcoin. Because the issuer does not want to hold any other currencies.

The Bitcoin standard will fix everything. Ahahaha

Laeserin 1y ago

The problem I see here is that you are now homeless and probably broke.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

also that he's probably never even held as much as 10 bit cents

Bored Satoshi 1y ago

It's the reality ahahaha

Why didn't you work hard to pay back your loan Laeserin?

Laeserin 1y ago

Ha ha. Nah, Laeserin don't take no loans. 😂

Bored Satoshi 1y ago

I bet you will take loans in the future.

I bet you will borrow Bitcoin against some collateral as well.

Laeserin 1y ago

Nah, I don't even have a credit card balance or a car loan.

I don't even have a car.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

i hate cars because of how much they entangle me with the government and police... occasionally it's a hassle not having a car but i wouldn't even want a car until i really needed it, living 50km away from the nearest grocery store

Bored Satoshi 1y ago

Jesse, What the Fuck Are You Talking About

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

who's jesse?

english, do you understand it?

Sandor Clegane 1y ago

Technically you need shelter & an address of some kind, "home" is just the conventional course.

Sandor Clegane 1y ago

Now how much of that convention is because of coercion is anyone's guess...

DataNostrum 1y ago

Ok, you're talking about a scenario where Bitcoin is 100x bigger than it is today. I still don't know why anybody in their right mind would borrow bitcoin to repay in 10+ years, especially with the liquidation risk. It just seems like this type of lending will become rare.

Also, if Bitcoin becomes the primary store of value, it will demonetize real estate, so it's unlikely that any standard real estate would outperform the deflationary store of value (maybe some rare/premium real estate could).

Bored Satoshi 1y ago

People will borrow bitcoin because they will have no other options. If someone is lending you in $$$ they would be the holders of $$$. The right question here would then be "who in their right might would hold dollars in the future".

DataNostrum 1y ago

Our current system is debt-based. If you take out a loan/mortgage in dollars, the bank wasn't previously holding those dollars, they get created upon your agreement to repay. So "who in their right mind would hold the dollar" is already true today.

Under a Bitcoin standard, lending and borrowing will become less common, because it's tougher to pay off in a deflating currency. Higher risk of default means more stringent conditions for lending, which means fewer loans.

Bored Satoshi 1y ago

Bitcoin will be less and less deflationary going forward. We will have better tools to hold and spend our sats. Bitcoin is a fixed supply currency.

Currencies with inflation will go out of fashion.

It has to be deflationary if the economy grows because the same amount of Bitcoin will represent an increasing amount of goods and services on offer and it can only do that by lowering the price per good or service.

A deflationary currency discourages spending which in turn tampers the economy. It's Bitcoin's self defeating mechanism, or for that matter the self defeating mechanism of any fixed supply currency.

That's why the dollar had to be detached from gold. While the amount of gold is increasing it's nowhere increasing as fast as the economy.

Bored Satoshi 1y ago

I don't even know where to start ahahahaha

You could start selling Bitcoin for fiat while there are still greater fools.

Then create a better fiat that does a better job at growing and shrinking the money supply in line with a growing and shrinking economy to maintain stable prices.

This is covered in Silvio Gesell's "The Natural Economic Order" and the movie "Shillings from Heaven" that you can find on YouTube.

Bitcoin to pay the bots/ Statsats

DataNostrum 1y ago

"That's why the dollar had to be detached from gold."

No, Nixon decoupled the dollar from gold in 1971 because some countries (e.g. France) were demanding to redeem dollars for gold as originally promised under Bretton Woods, but the US very likely did not have enough gold to cover the dollars it had printed.

I agree that a deflationary currency discourages spending compared to an inflationary currency, but I don't see that as a bad thing. It discourages *stupid* spending, and encourages *sensible* spending.

How does a house "outperform Bitcoin"? What's the standard by which performance is measured?

Bored Satoshi 1y ago

By being valued at 12 Bitcoins. That means the house has outperformed Bitcoin.

When the house was bought:

1 Bitcoin = $100k

1 house = 10 BTC = $1m

After 2 years

1 Bitcoin = $200k

1 house = 12 BTC = $2.4m

That means the house has outperformed Bitcoin. Even if there's no dollar in the world anymore, the house will have outperformed Bitcoin if the exchange rate is 12 BTC instead of 10

Ok. "Outperform" is your weird way of saying "the price went up" I guess.

Bored Satoshi 1y ago

You are as annoying as you were before. You are the devil I know than a stranger. I'll take it. Ahhahhaahahha

The house would have outperformed Bitcoin with respect to every asset in the universe.

Say 1 Bitcoin = 0.00000001 Sun (if we use stars as currencies)

1 house would be 0.0000001 Sun

After 2 years

1 Bitcoin = 0.00000002 Sun

1 house would be 0.00000024 Sun

A weird asset to compare against but if that's your thing ...

I take the devil part as a compliment. I'm here to ask the hard questions.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

a debt that has been agreed to is not onerous by definition

the usual procedure is a negotiation of a settlement that cancels the debt, usually involving liquidation of assets and a tax out of your income, that usually won't fully satisfy the loan but it is all that is reasonable

bondage through debt is not permissible, though in Islam it is permissible for an enemy to serve you as a slave as compensation for their aggression previously for some period of time rather than be killed

and yes, the size of the finance industry has to shrink under a hard money system, because it is very high risk

defaulting on a debt you signed up for is a sin though, that's why it does have to be properly amended

Laeserin 1y ago

Most highly-profitable monopolies are sustained through government intervention, so a reliance on interest-bearing debt might lead to a class of wealthy lenders that lobbied/bribed the state for more intervention, to help sustain their business model of making money off of money.

They could, after all, simply offer to lend money to the state.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

who then has to rob the people to pay the debts

which is exactly why the system is as it is now, to serve those usurious money lenders, who benefit from raising the time preference of the population as high as possible, which eventually gets to the sodom and gomorrah level

Laeserin 1y ago

Which is why I don't want to just recreate this situation, or just sit quietly by while people come up with business plans for raping civilization AGAIN. 😕

The least I can do is get up in public and say

DO NOT TRUST THE MONEY LENDERS! MONEY LENDERS IS ASSHOE!

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

yep, just like the christians did all of the last 2000 years lol

this is one of the things that bugs me about most christians these days, they don't have the whip the money lenders thing properly in their mind, it is pure evil

that was literally a conspiracy between the money lenders and the priests btw, to make this statute to require this particular coin, and the money lenders cornered the market and charged a premium, and the priests didn't change the rule because they were getting part of that premium so they could live high on the hog

the exact nature of what jesus was all about was the collusion of finance and government, and it should be the most primary goal of all christians to fight against that everywhere, these days christians are almost more wishy washy and complacent than even these fucking atheists, turn the other cheek? lol, how about whip the fucking money lenders in the temple!!!!

Laeserin 1y ago

People keep telling me that Christianity is about praying and not about economics and it be like,

Bible much?

Niel Liesmons 1y ago

The first rule of Christ Club is you don't get to tell others what Christ Club is about

Laeserin 1y ago

😅

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

pretty sure it's the other way around but nobody has to agree with you either

Laeserin 1y ago

He was just joking.

Christians don't really talk about what the Bible mostly talks about because it's not en vogue and sounds archaic, and then everyone is like OMG, they're talking about coveting the oxen, again! These people are so out of touch! 🤦‍♀️

Preach about chastity all day, but NEVER EVER talk about not lending out money for consumption or the benefits of accurate measures and debt jubilees, or the importance of donating to charity and helping your neighbors because that is LITERAL COMMUNISM OMG.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

we are all stuck in a borderless city of Sodom, these people don't even realise

Laeserin 1y ago

Actual communists want there to be a state that determines what is morally right, in the economic realm, and forces everyone to do that.

Actual anarchists want there to be no state, but also don't want some chick on the internet to discuss the morality of usurious or nearly-usurious practices because that puts emotional/social pressure on them to not be a gigantic asshole.

Neither side wants to hear about the Bible. 🤣

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

anarchists who are atheists are just libertines and just want to have their jollies and then die, none of this horrible learning and pain stuff pls

Laeserin 1y ago

They don't just want to be libertines. They want to get cheered on by everyone else.

Everyone wants praise, nowadays, and flips out when someone says,

vinney...axkl 1y ago

The value of praise is entirely dependent upon the source.

vinney...axkl 1y ago

You think there isn't learning and pain on the path that atheists walk? When you don't have a magic book and magic friend to turn to, your entire life is first-hand discovery, exploration, trial and error, learning, meditating, seeking truth, re-seeking truth.

Marcus Aurelius may have been questionably spiritual, but he's close enough to an atheist to make the point better than I could.

To brashly and stupidly equate atheism solely with hedonism is pretty sophomoric and tired at this point in human history man.

Laeserin 1y ago

Like, think through this logic.

Anarchistic atheist: I don't believe in religion. Religious morality is just made up hocus-pocus.

Me: Okay, I believe in it.

AA: That's because you are functionally retarded or brainwashed.

Me: Okay, fine. I think what you're doing with your business is probably immoral, according to my religion.

AA: I feel unsafe. The religious people are after me!

Me: I only said one sentence 🤷‍♀️ , and you just said you didn't believe in divine or spiritual punishment or morality, anyway.

AA: Yes, but you said that you did and other people do and they might listen to you and then they will also think I'm doing something immoral and they will like me less and maybe avoid doing business with me.

Me: Cry harder.

AA: OMG LITERAL COMMUNISM.

😅

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

literally the way these libertine anarchist materialist/nihilists think

they know they are doing bad things in their heart, at minimum turning a blind eye, and more often, profiting a little, and then they freak out at you for pointing it out, like, hold on, i thought you said this wasn't wrong?

Laeserin 1y ago

It's their conscience. They are at war with their inner angel and we're like, We're wit da angel on dis one, bro.

vinney...axkl 1y ago

I guess we're even now on "that person said they think I'm functionally retarded or morally corrupt due to my belief system".

🇵🇸 whoever loves Digit 1y ago

I'm exceptions to most of these

Laeserin 1y ago

And I am not like other girls. 🤝

Niel Liesmons 1y ago

Nostr can actually make the other way around not such a freakin cringe experience.

Reading the actual bible with high signal commentary from perspectives that clash.

Instead of getting welcomed by a bunch of close minded InFlUeNcOrs telling me what the "Real" Christ Club is all about.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

iron sharpens iron

our society has been deliberately coddled and sheltered from harsh reality and force fed this atheistic materialist ideology underpinning the babylon system and such discussions inevitably get kicked off the silos where the crocodile tears rule the day

here you just gotta roll with the punches, that's why the "Christ Club" thing makes me smile 😁

Laeserin 1y ago

I am loving your new PfP. 😅

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

he's such a cutey

Laeserin 1y ago

Christ Club is about being nice and everyone liking you and lambs and rainbows and cherubs and Jesus is my boyfriend and don't be judgmental about things, just go with the flow and save the planet.

Now, you're all caught up on the Real Christ Club. No problem. Anytime.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

in actual fact, half of the bible is about economics!