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Right. The West has distilled Christianity to be this "idea" that provides solely for moral improvement. I think you could make a pretty solid case that the protestant revolution is largely responsible for the new atheist movement, nearly all of which comes post enlightenment.

Comte de Sats Germain 5mo ago

Early on, Christianity was the new atheist movement. They rejected the roman gods, and were called atheists by their opponents.

I think its a law of human behavior that groups divide, and the more encompassing the group is, the more people are pulled to divide. They'll find some little thing which seems inconsequential to an outsider and they'll form teams, and the teams devise purity tests to attract the "true believers" (in any domain - only coincidence that the term is bring used in this context), and people who rightly object to the shifting goal posts of the purity test are ostracized, and they eventually have to make a choice : give up and conform, or don't.

Before the Protestants left, the Catholics left EO. Within catholicism there were bloody splits before the Protestants won - the Cathars and the Waldensians, the Arians, the Hussite's, etc. Within EO there were bloody splits. Augustine basically lobbied to have heretics murdered by the state. Justinian rounded up and murdered his Italian rivals on the religious grounds of them following the teaching of Origen.

The Protestants are remarkable only because they won. It took 1200 years for any heresy to win after the consolidation under Constantine. Before that, they were routinely murdered en masse.

I actually disagree with a lot of Protestantism. Calvinism is pure barf. The motivation for Anglicanism is silly. Luther himself didn't even want the revolution and spent most of his life trying to stop it. But... I like the fact that they did it. Not the war, and not the specific beliefs, and not the loss of tradition, and not the way modern Protestants mostly have no idea what their denomination even means... But the fact that they left and got away with it - that bears God's fingerprint, IMO.

My comment above was a continuation on my thoughts on idolatry, combined with some revelations from reading Zhuangzi, an ancient Chinese philosophy book, which is one of the foundational books of Daoism. It made a really solid point that trying to improve things has only ever harmed them. I can't do it justice, but its worth reading just for that line of reasoning. So I was thinking... Did Jesus ever actually say anything like, "be nice?" There's "do into others" - but if I'd prefer truth over niceness, then my directive is to say the truth, not the nicety. And Jesus **_did say_** to pursue the truth and the truth will set you free.

So I'm thinking modern Christianity has made a terrible sacrifice. It sacrificed Truth for Charity. And anything not-truth is idol, because idols are false images. All things are images, but not all images are false.

Still, I'm hoping someone will try to make a real case that Christians have to be nice.

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Discussion

Melissa 5mo ago

When Jesus said love thy neighbor as thyself he wanted us to see that we are all divine beings without the conditioning and programming. We’re all born as divine beings and it’s our environments that make us the monsters we are. That’s also why he said forgive them for they know not what they do…for they were programmed and conditioned to hate me and therefore cannot see the truth. Jesus wanted us to see that our beliefs, programming and conditioning makes us hate each other. It’s not about being nice. It’s about having a deep understanding that we are all divine beings and are whole and worthy of love just because we are all divine beings. That’s how I see it.

Comte de Sats Germain 5mo ago

🤔 yeah, he did say, "love." Its hard to argue that one... I think my case may have just died.

But... Maybe I can still swing it. If you're loving your neighbor as yourself, are you really loving you neighbor, or yourself? And what if you don't love yourself? If you sacrifice yourself in pursuit of truth - or anything - then should you sacrifice your neighbor in some way for the same reason? This is starting to look like the hermetic principle of "as within, so without ; as above, so below." Maybe loving your neighbor as yourself isn't even about your neighbor. Maybe it means, "if you fix yourself, other people will fix themselves."

Idk... "Love" is a powerful word. I might be wrong.

I'm gonna nitpick one thing you said, though. I don't think our environment makes us monsters. The environment is nothing. How we respond is everything. We start as monsters and mayyyyybe learn not to be a monster, but I don't think most people manage it.

Melissa 5mo ago

I’ve realized by rising above polarization, another hermetic principle, that I see the reality of how peoples beliefs, programming and conditioning molds behavior and causes division. Does that make us monsters? Sort of. I think you’re right that it’s about how we respond but most people aren’t evolved to even be self aware, so they’re literally being unconsciously run by their programmed subconscious and beliefs about the world.

I think loving your neighbor as yourself means to see that you are both divine beings and are worthy of love. However, most people are deeply unconscious and are not lovable humans. 😂 That’s where it gets complicated. I can have compassion for unconscious people because I’ve been there. I know what it was like to be enslaved by bullshit. I was raised in the Mormon church. Try unraveling that bullshit and not thinking that everyone I grew up with was stupid and evil for believing in soul suppressing bullshit. I can’t seem to get to loving unconscious humans, but I can have compassion for them. I think it’s a process of spiritual evolution. Maybe my heart isn’t opened enough to get to love because I still have more wounds to heal?

I also think truth seeking is ultimate love for humanity. When you seek the truth you remove beliefs, programming and conditioning that allows you to have the eyes to see and the ears to hear, which allows one to have the capacity to have compassion and love. It’s not self sacrifice, it’s enlightenment.

Comte de Sats Germain 5mo ago

I can relate to a lot of this. I was never Mormon, but had a friend once who converted to Mormonism. What caused you to leave?

Melissa 5mo ago

I saw through Joseph Smith. He has more in common with David Koresh than Jesus. The polygamy, violence, narcissism, all of the classic cult leader traits. I also felt like it suppressed my soul, made me small and powerless. The shame for not reading my scriptures or paying tithing or praying. The church’s mentality that if you don’t do this, you won’t get blessings. They are a religion without any spiritual soul evolution. They don’t understand Jesus. All the Mormons I grew up with are still in the Mormon church, their kids are spreading lies for the church on missions. They haven’t evolved spiritually or mentally. They are deeply unconscious. They have a church that claims it’s the plan of happiness however, they’re all unhappy, fat and powerless. It’s really sad. They all blindly worship Israel. I was skeptical and curious from an early age so I was never meant to stay. I finally couldn’t align with them because my soul was suffering, so I left. Truth seeking is a lonely place, but I’m more free than I’ve ever been.

Comte de Sats Germain 5mo ago

Oof... That doesn't sound like a good experience. Shame isn't the way. Neither is guilt. And blessings can't be controlled like that, so... Yeah. There's no qualifications for a blessing - they happen when you're in need, and secretly. I mean, real ones.

Its interesting that you held onto your spirituality. It seems like it's fairly common for people to react by going to the opposite extreme, but it doesn't seem like you did that. From your notes, I'd say you're quite tuned in with the invisible world.

Melissa 5mo ago

It wasn’t as bad as it sounds. 😂 I was somewhere I didn’t belong and I wasn’t willing to pretend. I care too much about being real and freedom. I don’t believe most Mormons believe what they say they believe but they aren’t willing to blow up their comfortable lives. They haven’t realized happiness comes from going within and healing wounds, not projecting and expecting outside sources or things to bring them happiness. Most Mormons are good people. They’ve just been tricked into looking for happiness through religion instead of within, like most religious people. My search for truth led me to where I am now. Humans are meant to evolve.

Comte de Sats Germain 5mo ago

Jeez, way to just casually say the whole meaning of, like, everything... "Happiness comes from going within and healing wounds, not projecting and expecting..." Yep. By some interpretations, that's what the cross symbolizes, or part of it. Well... Yeah, part.

I think most people are good. Certainly everyone is the hero in their own story. We recognize the bad in others as a mirror of the bad in ourselves, then react more to our own shadow than the other person.

Have you ever thought of returning to Mormonism, just better equipped with all the things you've learned? More in control, or something like that?

Melissa 5mo ago

No, I’d never go back to Mormonism. When you see through it, you can’t unsee it.

Comte de Sats Germain 5mo ago

Its good that you escaped.