Instead of shouting "propaganda" and "fake assumptions" maybe address a single point in the link?
Thats nice but block rewards get lower over time and run out. Look at current fees. It's unsustainable unless price goes up forever and/or fees continue to rise. Speaking of assumptions, those are big ones to make.
First of all watch Andreas Antonopoulos - 51% Bitcoin Attack from 10 years go, link is above.
Second of all look again at Bitcoin Hashrate chart. The propaganda article was written in 2021. Notice the change in hashrate since then.
Thirs of all, read the stupid propaganda artcle - mentioning the operating profits of JP Morgan, VISA and the Chinese army but not mentioning their costs ... so no net profits
Fourth of all, its a non-existent "problem" and its just a shitcoin attack on Bitcoin
Going into the future, Bitcoin (and any PoW coin) has roughly 6 scenarios that will happen if price stops climbing at a similar rate to the past (I think its a safe bet to say it wont. Name one thing in history that has. Even if it unrealistically swallows 100% value in the world there is still a limit):
1) Unending block rewards (never going to happen 21M is core)
2) Reoccuring blocksize increases + increasing transaction count (Growing fees spread across growing transactions - probably wont happen either, but more probable than #1)
3) Second layers that actually consistently pay miners to secure the chain unlike Lightning (i.e. Drivechains)
4) Nothing changes "scenario A". Thriving fee market. Tiny set of wealthy users are able and willing to pay massive fees. The full potential of Bitcoin is not available to most. Vast majority of plebs will rarely, if ever, touch the base layer. Custodial and less sovereign layers are the norm more than they are even now. No realistic unilateral exit that makes economic sense means the entire security model of layers like lightning are pointless if they can't be enforced on chain.
5) Nothing changes "scenario B". Not enough users are willing to use Bitcoin or pay enough fees for miners to offset dwindling block rewards and secure the blockchain. Miners start dropping out to a new, much lower, equilibrium. (increasingly vulnerable to 51% attack)
6) Mostly altruistic miners (lol. lmao.)
If Bitcoins price doesn't increase at a similar rate to the past, which do you think is most likely? Which do you prefer? What scenario did I miss? You tell me.
First of all you better not worry about Bitcoin but go figure out the scenarios related to your monero shitcoin.
Second of all, we Bitcoiners will make sure Bitcoin prospers the way it has been for 16 years.
Third, Satoshi Nakamoto has already thought out and implemented the great idea and design, like for example the difficulty adjustment.
Fourth, in the past we have had "bear" markets with the price dropping. What happened? Bitcoin, doesn't care, tick tock, next block, as a result Bitcoin has been in continues bull market since inception.
Why do you keep deflecting to Monero? We already chose #1, #2, and potentially #3 down the road
Guess you can't answer a simple question.
You keep retreating to the past as if that spells out the future.
Maybe it makes you feel insecure bringing these things up. We can stop this convo. Got forbid you address the difficult questions in good faith.
I am mentioning that you are Monero fanboys because context is important. You are not Bitcoiners. All of you like Bitcoin to fail and you show all of your bullshit arguments that does not make any sense.
And I have seen your crazy arguments about Monero's privacy and what not that all turned bullshit as well. https://moneroleaks.xyz/
A clown project with endless hard forks and still broken.
See, you can't change reality even with your propaganda bullshit the way flat-earthers can't change the real shape of our planet Earth.
Bitcoin is doing its thing beautifully. And I feel very calm and secure owning Bitcoin. I have my freedom.
Yes, that is called deflection. You're diverting from the original topic.
I don't want Bitcoin to fail. Look at my profile. Make Bitcoin Great Again.
It's tough love. Easily offended weak-minded users make hard times. Adversarial-minded users make good times.
#4
your assumptions are based on bitcoin price not rising to keep pace
it has succeeded in doing that for 15 years because it was well designed.
arguments against the mechanism by which it achieves that are based on keynesian economic models which have been used by central bankers to promote the idea of a constantly inflating monetary system
bitcoin's ongoing operation disprove this idiotic thesis, and trying to use this to fud bitcoin as a fanatic for privacy coin simply fall flat. carry on with your fantasy as much as you like it's not going to change the empirical facts that bitcoin WAS designed well and no shitcoin has been able to get a word in edgewise since then.
it's a waste of time, but it's your time that is being lost. life is not eternal. principles are.
You're the one assuming price will rise forever. That's a big assumption.
Past performance is no guarantee of future performance.
All you have are claims and speculation. Didn't even try making an argument.
Didn't mention privacy coins once, but glad they're on your mind.
What happens in a post USD world when everything is measured in BTC? Against what is BTC supposed to rise? Against itself? This only works because most BTC (fiat NGU maxis) operate on a mental fiat standard.
It's when wrong design decisions will become obvious to more and more people.
We will have The Bitcoin Standard. Everything measured against Bitcoin.
Similar to the gold standard but better in every way. Current Keynesian models failed. Inflation is theft. Debt is slavery.
The gold standard had inflation and still does. It's also private and fungible.
It failed as the economy became more globalized because of the cost and burden of settlement. Vast majority moved to IOUs and custodians. Now everyones transactions are ruggable, censorable, and surveilled.
Story reminds me of the current trajectory of this other coin
the whole point is that in a post USD, bitcoin world, the prices will actually be stable for decades, just like silver and gold were quite stable against everything priced in the coins.
if energy becomes more abundant, it will become cheaper.
not really controversial to talk about supply and demand being the primary basis of prices.
Introducing more inflation(like tail emission) can only debase everyone else bitcoin slowly then fast which would inevitably crash confidence and price overtime, and when Bitcoin becomes worthless like Bitcoin-SV then miners won't risk investing their money to secure a unreliable store of value.
Gold did it for thousands of years with a small bit of inflation
You don't need to introduce inflation, but you have to do something if you want to avoid the security problem when block rewards run out.
Relying on price to go up forever, and at the same rate as the past, to secure Bitcoin is very risky to say the least
I know you have inflation on Monero. You can do whatever you want there. And you do it with endless hard forks. Inflation is theft.
What happened to ETH shitcoin? Gas fees, inflation, complexity, centralization, POS absolute fucking shitcoin.
Bitcoin will be 21 Million forever. And I don't buy your hypothetical bs.
Bitcoin already has great incentive structure and that is visible on the charts that represent reality.
"You don't need to introduce inflation, but you have to do something if you want to avoid the security problem when block rewards run out."
Says who? What will be the price of Bitcoin at that time?
The 21M Bitcoin will be mined until year 2140. We don't need to rush. Let time show if incetives work.
You will start having problems way before it runs out. Probably in the next few halvings.
Even if transction count and fees go up you will still end up in #4
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when everything is a hammer, all you see is nails.
shitcoiners are all the same, they are resentful of the success of bitcoin and don't understand how simplicity can beat sophistication. it just does. if you pulled your head out of your arse and look at history that's how it always works.
Your assumptions make no sense. You say:
"4) Nothing changes "scenario A". Thriving fee market. Tiny set of wealthy users are able and willing to pay massive fees."
Current fee is 1 sat/vByte and transactions are the cheapes of all monetary networks. People move millions for less than a buck. So if nothing changes, as you mention, where did you get the idea about massive fees? Especially with high number of transactions which is representatvie of thriving market? 0 logic.
Because no one uses the chain. Bitcoin is at an ATH and still no one is using it. Think about what that means. Everyone is either hodling, on exchanges, or with custodians (not paying mining fees).
How would miners be getting paid with very little on chain activity, but little to no block reward in the future?
#5 is what would happen if we had the current circumstance down the road
The chain is used now and will be used even more in the future. No one hodls forever. Bitcoin is money. People live and will spend their Bitcoin for their living.
Both users on-chain and on LIghtning Network will increase leading to increase to transaction volumes and fees profitability. The free market is doing its thing at adjusting participants and efficiency.
Then you'll run into #4
Lightning doesn't pay mining fees to secure the chain so it doesnt matter with what we're talking about
Miners are free to run lightning nodes. In addition they have their own on-chain incentives. Also opening and closing LN channels do pay fees on-chain.
Lightning is the opposite of what you would want.
It entirely eliminates transaction fees for miners that go thru it's network. Or it greatly reduces fees if they do decide to run one node.
I don't think many miners are going to go through the trouble for a few cents a month.
LN channels do pay fees on-chain.
Lightning Network is the way to get every human being to use Bitcoin as medium of exchange. Small value transactions.
There will be enough market for on-chain high value transactions. Miners incentives work.
Sorry but what you think is irrelevant. What I think too. What is relevant is the reality.
All my bets are on Bitcoin though. Its the only Hope for Humanity.
No they dont. If I pay you on lightning miners don't get any of those fees.
Lightning doesn't scale to every human non-custodially/permissionlessly.
You're right what we think is irrelevant. What happens will happen.
Opening and closing lightning network channels pay on-chain fees to miners.
Its good we agree on the last point : )
Yes, but the whole point of lightning is to very rarely open/close channels and mostly transact over lightning.
For once we agree on something
Lets call it a day on a good note.
I wish you well. Let us be free, have our choices and what happens will happen.
it doesn't make me as mad listening to the cult of monero but i still pretty much mute them all and usually don't engage with them. you can't bring reason to a person who is a fanatic about something. their brain is full of phobias against the principles that actually are important.
"you can't bring reason to a person who is a fanatic about something"
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