Nostr Web Client

Following on from yesterday, I've come to the conclusion that I can't advise people to use #nostr at this time.

The flippant attitude of some towards content which is both illegal and deeply disturbing is scary in its own right.

Telling people 'oh, tough, you just have to be responsible for blocking content you don't like' is not going to wash with normieville. They don't want to be exposed to CP when scrolling.

The gay porn bot was bad enough. This is a level too far.

Until relay operators actively work to remove notes which contain links to images which are so disturbing there can be no serious growth here and there will remain a risk of legal intervention.

Claiming 'yeah but you can't just expect relay operators to do that' is not enough. Nostr.build filters it out. If they can then the relay operators can too.

Sure, there'll be relays which host illegal content and the sick little fuckers that like that will connect to those relays. They can be dealt with by law enforcement. But for general purpose public relays there's no excuse.

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Discussion

CarteBlanche 6mo ago

Building the future ain’t easy.

mike 6mo ago

The “they” you refer to is us, and by us, I mean you.

Build the tool / platform / infrastructure you wish.

You don’t need to ask permission, you don’t need to gain consensus, you can just build.

You don’t even need to be able to code.

You can vibe code with nostr:nprofile1qqs8sxs4yuz47axp7uprpugrs3sfkdz5379tdg9xe2n5qfvz070a4egpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumt0wd68ytnsw43qzxmhwden5te0vakx2ctndahxzar0wghxgetk9aex2mrp0yeru66d

nostr:nprofile1qqsr7acdvhf6we9fch94qwhpy0nza36e3tgrtkpku25ppuu80f69kfqppemhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mp0qyt8wumn8ghj7mn0wd68yetvd96x2uewdaexwtcw9pzlq has some great info and tutorials on this.

Build the future you want.

Ľḭṿḙśƫṟãɖãṁṹṧ💫#RunCoreV30 6mo ago

Damn can’t even complain anymore without someone snapping back to vibe code it yourself

mike 6mo ago

I know.

How do we expect to get nothing done if we’re not allowed to do nothing about it 😂

Matt 6mo ago

I'm not running or creating relay software, I'm working on my own project. Sure, I could have a go at that, but really, the people currently running relays and creating the software need to consider this, especially when they're running public relays. It's a responsibility and failing to do what they can could see them being held legally liable. Nostr isn't going to fly under the radar forever and one day there will be far greater external scrutiny.

mike 6mo ago

Without being flippant and with the deepest respect. How do you other expect people to care enough to do the thing that you don’t care enough to do yourself.

Matt 6mo ago

I expect them to care enough because if they don't they will face legal consequences, eventually. This is why the nostr.build team have implemented AI tools to prevent the uploading of this kind of content. If they didn't they'd be screwed. Relay operators won't get a free pass. While I might not have the time or energy to build those tools myself, I'm also much less inclined to support this protocol when there are no attempts made to deal with what will be a very serious problem.

mike 6mo ago

I am tempted to repost my previous response, but I think I’ll leave it there.

As a relay operator myself, I have spent more time discussing this than I care to.

I don’t care about the things you think I should care about, just as normies don’t care about Bitcoin and central platforms don’t care about decentralised protocols.

My suggestion, you seem to have a genuine argument and view that you alone care about.

As a former very successful entrepreneur and then investor. That’s generally how entrepreneurs become successful, by pursuing these things when others don’t care to.

Matt 6mo ago

If people genuinely don't care about preventing CP links on their relay software then this protocol really will pick up a reputation which most users here, I'd hope, don't want.

mike 6mo ago

You care.

That is perhaps the point you are overlooking.

I cannot begin to explain the opportunity that awaits should you care enough to take action.

Matt 6mo ago

I care enough to point out where this inevitably leads. One day, hopefully soon, I'll demonstrate exactly what I do care about and what the focus of my energy is. It is concerning that you don't care whether you're hosting notes with links to CP. Do you not care for legal consequences? I mean, let's be honest, they're pretty minimal in the UK, but still. It's not a good look.

mike 6mo ago

Despite living in a very affluent area of the country, there’s probably drug trafficking, murder and slavery going on within a 5 mile radius of me.

There’s also billions of poor, starving and abused people on the planet.

I don’t care.

Not only that, I’m not capable of caring at that level. If I were, it would destroy my life and incapacitate my ability to function.

It’s likely that some of the servers my companies hosted between the 1980’s and early noughties carried very serious illegal material.

I am not capable of caring at either that level of abstraction or volume.

If you show me some illegal content hosted on my relay, I would have to close it down because I would and am capable of caring about a tangible event.

I am not, however capable of changing my server or removing that content without dedicating weeks or months of study and practice to learn how to do that.

I don’t care to do that.

Matt 6mo ago

Yet the owners of nostr.build cared enough to make sure their servers couldn't be used for that purpose, from the get go, because they're aware of the ethical and legal ramifications of not caring. Their system may not be perfect, there may occasionally be an issue, I don't know, but at least they've done what they can.

mike 6mo ago

Yes, they care.

I care about a lot of things that you don't but should.

There are an infinite number of things you should care about, but don't, just as there are for me.

If I was a developer and built a custom service like nostr.build I would care alot about that server.

They are right to care about their service.

If I had invested more than 30 seconds of setup time for my relay or if I ran it professionally or offered any kind of guarantees about it I would care. But for the 30 seconds of invested time, I don't have the time or inclination to care.

I care a lot about trying to convince you I don't care, however 😂

Matt 6mo ago

I forsee serious issues for people in the future if things don't change. I'll tell you why it's pissed me off too - because it was there, on my screen. Only for fractions of a second but that was too much. It won't be much of a legal defence to say 'yeah but I didn't know or care' if and when that day comes. Relay operators will be treated much the same as content hosting platforms. For the time being, the only relay I'll run is the one on my phone. Till such a time as the tools are there to prevent the bad stuff, or until there's some clear indication that efforts are being made, it simply isn't worth the risk of running a public relay.

mike 6mo ago

OK, I'm doing it:

nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzp6pmv65w6tfhcp73404xuxcqpg24f8rf2z86f3v824td22c9ymptqqszmjh7z74evjvap5zu8eyqznycwzc2qzh9fre2mgwa0e7gfvaaypgqnnv40

fractalchris 6mo ago

You missed the point, Mike. And your attitude is off-putting. But you have every right to be as annoying as you wish!

mike 6mo ago

I haven't missed the point at all, nor am I annoyed.

Isn't it interesting how your different view of the world can get things like this so completely wrong. I know you are wrong about this because you're trying to tell me about me and I am uniquely the authority on me.

I am not, however, the authority on you, so why don't you tell me what you think or understand or feel instead.

Because this, I do not know.

Matt 6mo ago

He said you're annoying, not that you're annoyed. I wonder, what drives people to do that?

mike 6mo ago

Good point, yes he did say annoying 😂

I think they want in to a mature discussion because they have points to make but cannot bring themselves to make them.

Perhaps 🤔

Could be a bot!

mike 6mo ago

So Matt, I've just thought of an analogy to our discussion which might help.

If a child is killed in a car accident, the mother may spend the rest of her life campaigning for better car safety.

The rest of the world is sympathetic to her cause and loosely supports her, but it requires the mother to push through the changes that are required.

So it is here, we all understand the problem we all see the issues, but we don't spend our time thinking about these things.

Because you have witnessed this first hand, it has affected you personally. You feel inclined to act, but don't know entirely what to do or how to go about it.

The community here will help and support, but we cannot take on your cause.

If I had seen CP, then I would probably act and feel as you do.

Here is the unique bit of insight I have from years of building and investing.

The ones that see a problem and go about fixing it or providing a solution, are the ones that change the world and are rewarded and remembered.

If you choose to embrace this path, you may find it more rewarding than you can possibly imagine.

mike 6mo ago

Here's more practical advice.

There are plenty of brilliant devs here, they are easy to find. Make contact with them, discuss the issues as you see it. Ask if they are interested in working with you on this problem.

Vibe code a crude solution yourself, see how it works.

Then apply to nostr:nprofile1qythwumn8ghj7ct5d3shxtnwdaehgu3wd3skuep0qyt8wumn8ghj7etyv4hzumn0wd68ytnvv9hxgtcqypu8xwr40lp96ewdj2fef408wy70gd3carf9n6xu7hrnhq6whpgly925h0z for a grant, the issue is strong enough that a strong proposal would almost certainly get funded.

Use that money to build a team, run it, guide it, focus it.

Have the time of your life creating something that is important and is going to change a part of the world.

fractalchris 6mo ago

😂😂😂👍

inpc 6mo ago

I wonder what relays people are using? I’ve been lucky I’ve never seen any CP. I’ve seen an amount of racist shit and horrible war stuff and about 5 or so erect penises.

Typically I’ve had Damus, Nos.Social and Nos.lol as well as a couple of mutuals relays. Client wise mostly Nostur, NoStrudel, YakiHonne and Nosster.

I wonder if it’s because I don’t follow the ‘big’ accounts. Maybe that’s the secret? I tend to think the ‘edgy’ types are most likely to ride the coattails of celebrity bitcoin mouthpieces. Hmm…

mike 6mo ago

I've never seen it myself, but I'm sure it could happen and if it happened to me, I'd probably take Matt's stance.

I think things like Web of Trust will become more important in the future. The downside of WoT is entering what seems to be a semi walled garden for a newbie.

A bit like real life, we trust the people we know, but we are reticent to let new people in.

This goes against the ethos of open social media, where all discussions are public and anybody can join in.

fractalchris 6mo ago

Actually you did miss the point. 3 times in this discussion at least. Buy keep up the great work, Mike... I guess

mike 6mo ago

I'm glad you think so 🫂

I will buy up the great work 😂

Don't guess, verify 💪

liminal 🦠 6mo ago

The key is to not start them off in the wild, you need to bring them to the highest quality users first. I paid 300 sats to bring a new user on to theforest relay and only that one. Said follow a few specific individuals and to not change the settings. You gotta hand hold quite a bit, curate, point them to the quality users you follow.

At this point, there really isn't a better option.

Matt 6mo ago

Thing is, you can handhold them all you want, but the moment they see something like CP they're gone and they're going to assume that people here support that. Not good for growth, long term, never mind the legal ramifications.

liminal 🦠 6mo ago

nostr:nprofile1qqs06gywary09qmcp2249ztwfq3ue8wxhl2yyp3c39thzp55plvj0sgpzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezumrpdejqzyrhwden5te0dehhxarj9emkjmn9qydhwumn8ghj7argv4nx7un9wd6zumn0wd68yvfwvdhk6tc7xx9t4 deliberately doesn't follow anyone, always and only connecting to theforest and has no problems, only scrolling global. You need someone monitoring and keeping track of whos in your community. Beyond that, you can't make any guarantees.

Silberengel 6mo ago

We don't have that on our relays.

Ryan 6mo ago

It's why almost all new users leave after a short time.

Matt 6mo ago

I can believe that. I certainly wouldn't expect people I know to stick around if that's what they can expect.

Christian Lacdael 6mo ago

Never guess who is probably posting that content.

Kiss the ring, or bear the arrows.

R 6mo ago

I use @primal, use the default relays, follow decent people, and stay off the global feeds. I see nothing but good content. That’s how I’d recommend everyone do it.

steven8rown 👊 6mo ago

This is the way. Trying similar. Which i could figure out how to set it to not use global feeds as default.

R 6mo ago

In nostr:nprofile1qqs9xtvrphl7p8qnua0gk9zusft33lqjkqqr7cwkr6g8wusu0lle8jcpp3mhxue69uhkyunz9e5k7qgjwaehxw309ahkvenrdpskjm3wwp6kynt489h , select the drop down arrow next to the feed name at the top of the screen, select edit in the lower right corner, turn off the feeds you don’t want. These are the only 4 I have selected making it easy to swipe through them.

steven8rown 👊 6mo ago

Yeah just seen this. Pretty good. The "one per follow" feed is good, only showing you the last post by people you follow. 👌

BTC-Satanist 6mo ago

Yeah, what is this guy talking about ? All I ever see is stuff about Bitcoin, coding, photography , etc. There was porn here and there but that just involves a little unfollowing and muting here and there . I don't relays to do anything.

𝕯𝖊𝖗 𝕲𝖊𝖎𝖘𝖙 6mo ago

Nostr is like Shanghai in the early days.

One must go armed.

SatsMcD.ai 6mo ago

Yup. I 100% agree. I’ve got about 1 month left in me & I’ll be leaving behind Nostr which is my last ditch effort at “social”.

These places all turn into hell.

Fun for a while, some good connections but lowest common denominator always wins in the end.

I’m going to touch some grass now. And pet my dogs.

semisol 6mo ago

I am working on something for this, but it costs a bunch to operate. I will be making certain features free for relay operators.

The rest I’ll be setting up a donation fund for once it releases and restricting it to paying users only if that doesn’t work.

nostr:npub1rxj35cjsend6rtrg387fvr047gml6qr0na5w4svrm8arexkwl0vq8n3fj7 is part of that.

Matt 6mo ago

I'm really relieved to hear that. I don't think this place can't survive without those sorts of tools implemented. I've really thought about abandoning nostr over the last couple of days and I can imagine I'm not alone. This is too good an opportunity to allow something so heinous to destroy it.

semisol 6mo ago

You can support this by subscribing to nostr.land if you have not yet. All of these tools will be available to subscribers even if donations are rare.