Replying to Avatar [ARCHIVED] Jay

I think what people call gender today is a combination of temperament and personality mixed with the person's surrounding culture. Mix those together, and you get the ambiguous "gender," which can then be wherever you place yourself at any time according to those factors. Since they're constantly shifting, pretty much anyone can reasonably identify nonbinary, genderfluid, they/them, etc.

A lot of people subscribe to it, but it's not a framework I find particularly useful because it over-classifies people's behaviors according to traditional gender norms and can cause more confusion than it solves. Personally, I identify as my biological sex, but many parts of my personality and how I deal with things could be viewed as feminine, and many others are very masculine. By anchoring my gender to my sex, I free up my mind to think about my behavior in terms of what really matters, like my morals, beliefs, motivations, goals, etc.

I have no qualms about the gender identity framework per se, but I also think it's being over-utilized and weaponized, which is another reason I don't want to apply it to myself.
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river 2y ago

Certainly, I understand that gender’s definition can vary based on social context. In my view, rigid gender norms often lack significant social utility. People should be free to embrace their preferred gender identity without causing harm to others. It’s primarily a matter of personal preference.

As for myself, my inclination towards a particular gender might stem from my upbringing in a highly traditional and authoritarian household with strict gender roles. Growing up in a fundamentalist Christian environment influenced my perspective. I sometimes ponder if the existence of transgender individuals is more pronounced in societies where rigid gender roles are enforced. I wonder if, with increasing acceptance of non-binary and agender people, this could become a matter of personal preference rather than a highly relevant societal concept.

I see no issue with rooting your gender in your sex, and if that provides you a sense of simplicity overall, that's honestly good. It's a very physicalist, embodied view of reality, which I can actually appreciate.

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river 2y ago

But I agree that gender on its own doesn’t really have much social utility, especially if it’s increasingly arbitrary. I think any attachment to gender is in response to my upbringing, and less to do with a rational assessment.

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[ARCHIVED] Jay 2y ago

This is about where you start to get pushback from society against the transgender movement, when you say it's a personal preference that isn't harmful to others. Often times, school counselors and social media will guide children, teens, and adults to gender clinics who will recommend gender affirming treatment in the form of hormone therapy and surgery.

There is a fast growing segment of the population that are getting very severely harmed by trans identification because it often leads you, if you're young, on a conveyor belt of "safe and effective" medical treatments to affirm your identity. This is what I meant when I said it was being weaponized, because these procedures are hard on the body and have lifelong consequences while being effectively cosmetic and medically unnecessary.

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river 2y ago

Certainly, I understand the process for children dealing with gender dysphoria. Typically, they consult a psychiatrist, providing details about their symptoms and history. If they are pre-puberty, the psychiatrist might recommend social changes like adjusting clothing, pronouns, or names, which don’t significantly impact them. Around puberty or just before it, hormone blockers might be considered, backed by long-term studies showing minimal side effects. While any medication can have side effects, the overall risks seem relatively low. Later on, when they’re more mature, they can make informed decisions about hormone replacement therapy with estrogen or testosterone.

In this context, the paramount concern is the health and well-being of the child. Gender-affirming care has shown promise in reducing suicidal ideation among these children. Considering a cost-benefit analysis, it appears morally justifiable to offer these resources as long as gender dysphoria exists. However, it’s important to note that no one wishes gender dysphoria on anyone. The ongoing process of normalizing agender and genderfluid identities within society could potentially reduce the prevalence of gender dysphoria in the future, benefiting generations to come.

It’s not just a cliché; I want to emphasize that my views aren’t mere repetitions of mainstream news sources. I maintain a healthy skepticism and don’t blindly trust corporate media. To back my beliefs, I’ve delved into the specifics of various studies, whether it’s about the long-term effectiveness of gender-affirming care or the potential side effects of puberty blockers. It’s worth mentioning that I used to hold a different viewpoint on these matters, and I was quite socially conservative. I didn’t obtain my perspective from a liberal university or academic credentials.

I strongly believe in open and robust discussions, and I appreciate your willingness to engage in this dialogue.

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river 2y ago

Sorry I am quite rambling tbh

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[ARCHIVED] Jay 2y ago

We're coming up to the edge of my knowledge of scientific evidence about affirming treatments. I can only refer to pieces written by parents, researchers, and whistleblowers; and logical arguments to support my viewpoint, which is decidedly against the trans movement. Now it's my turn to be ramble on, haha.

My theory is that there is no relief from gender affirming treatments that cannot be better gotten by traditional psychological therapy, self-love, building mental fortitude, and improving family relations. Being in a situation where you're forced to Be A Man (tm) when you really just want to draw is unfortunate, but if that kid enters a clinic and is diagnosed with gender dysphoria rather than as a child of a parent with a potential personality disorder, I think that's a violation of Do No Harm. The former has physical risks that are unrelated to the problem at hand and may even make the child's home life worse.

At the end of the day, my views exist solely to inform my actions. I would be the voice against gender affirming care if it came up with someone I have any responsibility for, regardless of how brutal the backlash to that view would be. Because the risks outweigh the benefits and there are safer, noninvasive, and productive routes that are already well established in psychological treatment.

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techfeudalist 2y ago

Gender is the way that all animals, humans included, market ourselves to potential mates. Gender displays and behavior are really just nonverbal communication saying, “Choose me! I can provide safety, security, or help you raise a family."

Gender doesn’t seem to be an optional social construct. It’s role in sexual attraction is likely ancient and innate. Presumably our ancestors raised more successful children when they chose mates with certain physical and behavioral characteristics. Over the millennia those became deeply hardwired in us.

I came across this article a while back. 👇 The author recounts trying to two friends get dates. These two friends are popular gender nonconforming femmes - ie. feminine males. The author later realizes that few people are attracted to them:

“Nonbinary femmes like them are too masc for the straights, too femme for the gays, and too out for nearly everyone else.”

The article helped me understand that people can choose to be “gender non-conforming”, but that just reduces the pool of potential high quality partners.

Someone can be nonconforming, and change what they do and how they look, but they can’t change how others perceive them.

Your choice of life partner drastically affects your long term success and happiness. Whether you’re straight or gay, if your desired partner is attracted to a masculine person, it probably won’t be a successful strategy to present as feminine, and vice versa. It seems like the best strategy would be to work hard, become the best person you can be, and expand your options.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/wjq99z/why-cant-my-famous-gender-nonconforming-friends-get-laid

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river 2y ago

Interesting theory. I've never heard of the concept of gender being extended to animals and for the purpose of mating, but even if that were the case, I don't know how we would say that those are biological realities necessarily because they have shifted culturally over time. Expectations of what is feminine and masculine have changed as well as the interest or preference for certain presenting types of people versus others have definitely shifted cross-culturally and there are a plethora of various gender expressions across the world historically and in the present day.

I do find myself facing some difficulty matching with people on dating apps because of my genderfluid expression, but I chalk that up to my area. Honestly, I live in a very conservative area.

While I do take enjoyment out of other people noticing my presentation, I do it primarily for myself. I just like subverting gender expectations overall. I just find it an enjoyable act.

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techfeudalist 2y ago

Yes, all animals look and act a certain way to attract mates. You see refined gender displays in birds, presumably because birds socialize in flocks, creating abundant choice. Individuals are forced to evolve specialized gender displays in an attempt to stand out.

Bower birds with their elaborate architectural constructions:

https://blog.nature.org/2021/01/04/bowerbirds-meet-the-bird-worlds-kleptomaniac-love-architects/

Birds of paradise courtship dance spectacle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWfyw51DQfU

It’s the same with humans.

Listen to what this woman says:

https://www.tiktok.com/@lonerwithyou/video/7279190022698454278

She’s talking about traditional masculine gender display: “Chivalrous … wants to pay on the first date, wants to take care of you, to provide…”. She’s seeking security. She observes that men in her community of liberals don’t display these traits making it hard for her to find a suitable partner.

I agree that cultural shifts have occurred. Some of these shifts are minor (say, wearing dresses vs pants), while others are significant (men unable to provide security), like with the woman above. With the latter, you can see how economic changes are leading men to be less desirable in places like Japan which is leading to a decline in marriage.

https://www.nippon.com/en/features/c05604/

Anyway, my point is to not sabotage yourself. My hunch is that it’s not just your local area. You will, of course, expand the dating pool if you move to a larger city, but your matches there will be (how to say this nicely) … unstable. People who are stable and confident want to find partners who are also stable and confident. Do you want a stable and confident partner? Then consider what you’re communicating to the world.

Again, gender is not a self-centric concept. I worry that what you perceive as “subverting” is just undermining yourself. It’s like giving someone the gift of a phone with a smashed screen, or serving rotten food to your guests for dinner. It’s not about you, it’s about how others perceive you.

I understand the motivation. I think everyone has this part inside them that says “F..it, I’m not going to play this stupid game.” It’s unfair. Some people win the genetic lottery and others don’t. I think everyone, at some point, wants to take their ball and go home. Yeah, the system sucks but trying to “exit”, reduces your quality dating pool and increases your risk of being miserable for a long time. Humans can build a different reality for themselves. The better solution, IMHO, is to build yourself better. Proof of work.

Good luck! ✌️

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river 2y ago

You make some interesting points and I’ll have to check out that video and that article.

I agree that humans have the capacity to build a different reality for themselves. We certainly aren’t shackled by biology, we have our beliefs and values and things we care about outside of reproduction.

For myself? Ofcourse I want to signal and attract some reasonable level of stability. I don’t think myself wearing a skirt or makeup occasionally is reason for someone to doubt my stability. I don’t think I should be perceived as any lesser for such minor changes to myself. I

I am not complaining about people not swiping on me. I already have an amazing partner and I’m just looking for friends. People can have their preferences but I do wish that there would be an openness to engage with people who are different than them.

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river 2y ago

From my understanding of the Affirmative Care Model, the child's overall mental health is taken into consideration. Whether or not the child has schizophrenia, personality disorder, dissociative disorders, all of these are taken into account for their gender dysphoria. From what I understand, there is not an automatic assumption that the child needs to go into some sort of social transition. They take a holistic approach on the child.

If you have any studies at all showing that there are other alternative models besides the Affirmative Care Model I would love to see them.

I keep coming back to this meta-analysis just as a baseline for these discussions: https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/%26amp;sa%3DD%26amp;source%3Deditors%26amp;ust%3D1697117704489672%26amp;usg%3DAOvVaw2fWHy6dThn0aP40HcxqQNt&sa=D&source=docs&ust=1697117704576421&usg=AOvVaw1g20QDRJDUWf7J8m923OXs