Nostr Web Client

It sounds to me like their gripe is not with V4V or even Bitcoiners, but rather that they have not been immediately successful in whatever they’re doing and are choosing to project their own failure onto bitcoiners. They identified nothing that is actually a scam, so from the start I have to assume that their position is questionable and likely self-serving.

What I can agree with is that V4V is probably harder if you’re only trying to do it with bitcoin, simply because there are fewer people using bitcoin for payments than there are using regular fiat payments. If you are intent on ONLY accepting bitcoin, that automatically reduces your available market to ONLY people that have Bitcoin and who are willing to spend it. Pretty small group, so you’ll have to explicitly and consistently publish things they’re willing to part with sats over.

It is better to view V4V as one of the available approaches to content monetization. Bitcoin makes it easier and is borderless, so there are advantages to finding ways to appeal to a bitcoiner-based market. However, if someone wants to pay you in fiat and you are able to accept it, then you only hurt yourself by refusing to do so.

And using V4V doesn’t necessarily preclude you from also using other models like subscriptions, paywalls, etc, if you want to do so. It doesn’t need to be all or nothing. Although there are several examples of people here who say they have found V4V on nostr, even with its small user base, to already be more profitable than other platforms.

Michilis 10mo ago

This! 🙏💯 nostr:nprofile1qqsgvudxu5vg7ul8w3kv7rw3dxl55eu9gw9h9sfplqalllgylzqef5gpzemhxue69uhkummnw3ex2mrfw3jhxtn0wfnj7qghwaehxw309aex2mrp0yhxz7n6v9kk7tnwv46z7qgmwaehxw309aex2mrp0yhxummnw3e8qmr9vfejucm0d5hsvmyn4s

debasedghost 10mo ago

Current channels use multiple platforms and regularly encourage subscribers to move toward more effective support methods. A channel might tell YouTube fans to support on patreon or make direct donations. #v4v on nostr and #podcastindex can be a viable option for direct support and content distribution

AVB ( #BitcoinVillain ) 10mo ago

Thanks for the more in-depth reaction (you're the first to actually react to the essence).

My reply:

"rather that they have not been immediately successful in" (eh, I've destroyed half my time and brain for this for years so... "immediate success" is not a factor here imho. And self-serving? "their position is questionable and likely self-serving" -->

eh, well, I leave that to people who know me, on how self-serving I am.

"Bitcoin makes it easier and is borderless" --> agree, so it should have a big advantage

The mix of monetization is nice, and I'd be happy to accept fiat as well indeed, I'll look into possibilities to make it more of a mix between the 100% free stuff I do, to maybe 40% free and the rest paid "content".

Or I might just quit interely and be done with being called self-serving, shady or other things I'm not. If I would be self-server I would shill you a shitcoin every single week.

corndalorian 10mo ago

You started off with an air of moral superiority by calling it a scam, so fuck off with your fake holier than thou attitude. You can continue to be salty and cry or you can take inventory of what’s working and what’s not and make necessary changes in an effort to achieve whatever your goals are. It sucks when something you’re passionate about isn’t as successful as you want it to be. Being a little bitch about it isn’t helping you though. Own your failures and make necessary changes, or give up. Maybe you’re not passionate about it. I have no clue. Up to you to decide. But V4V is in no ways a “scam”

AVB ( #BitcoinVillain ) 10mo ago

You prove me right, thank you...

Anti-fragility in bitcoiners here people 😉

corndalorian 10mo ago

Do you wonder why you’re failing at V4V? I think I understand already after only a couple brief interactions with you 😂

AVB ( #BitcoinVillain ) 10mo ago

yeah, go eat a carrot

corndalorian 10mo ago

Buy me a carrot 🥕

lnbc10300n1pnmy9cmpp5g57zpl4asn0j3jktz7pmfk9jp03nv3ysfe7n2dwuslhsrqfd3hgqdp0gf6hjffjxpkk2ffjxpek7mt9y5erqcmpwfex7arn9cjnyvqcqzzsxqrrs0sp5z26hux3ld8j235hm308cvv8lms2zp2z8u3qmreuzqvf93gwfym4q9qxpqysgq4fkxx67v6dxw87d56l3gkm5a2e5xnu5frgnjpglgly9jupqanmn9z8k7yuvr665rc2dfu0dtarcs3lxnxnm0hh5vz06ut2lfyutz3fgqy3zvnl

AVB ( #BitcoinVillain ) 10mo ago

oh and about this part of your reply: "identified nothing that is actually a scam" --> bitcoiners call everything a scam that's not bitcoin, ... if I call V4V a scam, you don't get the half-joke, half truth?

I explained the two parts of this actually, both parts feel scammed more often than not.

If I had named the piece "my failure as a rotten self-serving loser" you'd probably had liked it 😉

corndalorian 10mo ago

I’d have more respect for you with that title, yes, because you would be honest about the situation in that case.

AVB ( #BitcoinVillain ) 10mo ago

thank you for that, you're making me stronger in my belief that this model is broken, and you personally wiped out 3+ years of hard work (for free) from this "self serving loser"

have fun stacking sats

corndalorian 10mo ago

AVB ( #BitcoinVillain ) 10mo ago

If a thought about V4V is causing this much hate, I can understand why people flock to non-bitcoin projects, at least over there, people aren't calling each other losers for doing a blog post about a REAL problem in the community.

But I guess it's easier to shoot the messenger.

corndalorian 10mo ago

You seem to have a difficult time accepting criticism.

AVB ( #BitcoinVillain ) 10mo ago

I either react (I thanked you for going into it at least, instead of 90% of the b////s that just look away and act like the freeloading is NOT a problem in this community.-)

What you think of me only affects me as a bitcoiner, who tries to do his best. I appreaciate the comments, even if they're a proof of not getting the message and trying to brand me as self-serving.

I know what to do: I'll act like the large % of this community and sit on my ass, produce nothing and have criticism on anyone who dares to say, create or think anything.

corndalorian 10mo ago

You’ll get muted is what you’ll get. Didn’t even buy me a carrot and still crying in my notifications because you can’t take a little heat.

AVB ( #BitcoinVillain ) 10mo ago

You not getting a carrot is Value 4 Value

corndalorian 10mo ago

As is you not getting the amount of support you think your work deserves. Thank you for making my point clear. Go make something people like or find people who like what you make. Stop complaining. It will get you nowhere.

cloud fodder 10mo ago

on a short term timescale, the fiat system won.

the fiat system is why living "costs so much". its why as a startup business you cannot even afford an additional programmer because their salaries have inflated way beyond what a startup can afford. real startups dont exist anymore, they are replaced by hedge funds which are simply huge corporations protecting their talent moat by playing rediculous lending games. they hire people to DO NOTHING for 350k a year, just to prevent them from providing value somewhere else outside their fund... its nearly impossible to break this cycle.

the government in america made it damn near impossible to pay your fellow value producers in bitcoin, making sure to classify it as property and subject to a slew of anti innovation laws. then they set their sights on cash and payment platforms like paypal, venmo.

the only way i believe v4v can *ever work again (if it ever did), is with bitcoin and a 5 year hodl strategy. if you dont have 5 years to build the momentum, while surviving the fiat world .. then you wont be on "the plateau", you wont ever win. the bitcoin you receive today and spend immediately on something you dont need like a coffee from fiatbucks is going to prevent you or your business from ever taking off.

atlas has shrugged, this is just how things are now. much of the world has turned to UBI and guess what, thats gonna make it even harder to exchange value for value. the fiat you have been paid was stolen directly from your own pocket. the only thing we can look forward to is, people still need things. actually need them. those things if you can produce them have value. you have to find a way to trade the value to others and stack it into bitcoin, and bunker down its gonna be a long hard fucking road.

a dive into how the nostr:nprofile1qqsgs0l2fsr3lkjyqmftv6lzrjc7mt6950s9spgdvgq7euwnt94mcwgprpmhxue69uhhqun9d45h2mfwwpexjmtpdshxuet5qy08wue69uhhw6tvd3jk6tnrw4e8y7trv9ekstnwv46r5dpcxsuqz9nhwden5te0v96xcctn9ehx7um5wghxcctwvspktsq2 noagenda show runs is a good example of throwing away the value that is created by converting their bitcoin donations to fiat (at John C Devorak's request). He was afraid, because of laws making it very hard to hodl bitcoin at your company. If they had been able to stash that into the business, noagenda would be worth 100x, maybe 1000x what it is now..

inpc 10mo ago

Hey failure as a self serving loser is my schtick! I want royalties.

AVB ( #BitcoinVillain ) 10mo ago

And before calling anyone a self-serving failure, he might have thought about what the person actually did for the community for free. These kind of people jump to conclusions because they want their orange-glasses to be true. It actually disgusts me to hear this.

I've goddamit made podcasts, blogs presentations while I was ill, combined 3 jobs, the moment I was recording a podcast while getting the call that my close family member was dying, I realized what fool I was to work for this.

So yeah, calle ME self-serving, by someone who doesn't know me and didn't even properly read the whole article is a bit of a typical thing I'll remember next time any grifter in bitcoin ask me why I don't work for the community anymore. I'll refer to Mr. buy-me-a-carrot. (and I'm sure he's a nice dude in real life, at least he makes and creates something from what I can see, usually these kind of comments come from the biggest self-serving losers who never did anything for bettering bitcoin anyway, unless they could have 5$ kickback on some referral link or something 😉

inpc 10mo ago

Your piece was thought provoking and even if I didn't agree with it all, I'm in no position to offer an alternative further than my own experiments, which are in there infancy. You've certainly kicked off some discussing with the V4V crew which can only be a good thing...

All I know is I myself need to try something new and V4V is a vibe I like. We're all creating data somehow and existing models are broken. Many think BTC fixes everything. A platform using BTC that still exploits creators and does a bunch of backroom deals with majors, while not paying Indies is no better than Spotify to me. I'm not fully convinced but I'm down for trying. Bitcoin fixes everything... for people with enough bitcoin not to have to really give a shit about how anyone else is doing. That said, we're all doing our thing and I'm totally up for trying.

Wishing everyone success in their endeavors, well unless they're launching a meme coin or some other scam haha.

AVB ( #BitcoinVillain ) 10mo ago

I encourage that. Even if you don't agree with everything (I doubt many people do).

I try to make people think about things, to make bitcoin better. If we're all "Fonzies" and do a thumbs up on everything, then the critique will come from outside our bubble anyway. I'd rather do it internally and have some bad words thrown at me. (not pleasant, but that's how it goes).

thank you for trying your best and taking the time for reacting.

Orange🍊Man👤 10mo ago

100% brother man

AU9913 10mo ago

Does this person even have an npub? If not, then they have no authority to even begin to discuss v4v

AVB ( #BitcoinVillain ) 10mo ago

hi, ... I have an npub yes this is me

AU9913 10mo ago

OK, reading through the article it seems to be lacking data to support your claim. Even when you include anecdotes on your own podcast, you didn't announce the number of downloads. Also, your podcast is very niche, like I've never heard of it until today. But I'm not your audience.

vinney...axkl 10mo ago

Or: "why doesn't the thing I insist on doing completely pay my bills?!"

Pretty dumbass take, to be blunt...

There are plenty of things I wish I could do in order to pay all my bills, but it's not up to me how much other people want to pay for my services (and how many of them exist). It's up to me to change what I offer (or lower my overhead)

ChadF and 33 others 10mo ago

I feel asleep reading this but V4V isn't only about Bitcoin or even money. It's just a piece of the Time, Talent and Treasure pieces that make it up.

Bitcoin influencers have watered down what V4V means.

Just listen to BowlAfterBowl with nostr:npub1yvscx9vrmpcmwcmydrm8lauqdpngum4ne8xmkgc2d4rcaxrx7tkswdwzdu and nostr:npub19ha7tju4teqp3dmwv4p28wrcy9zd6h6hxkg5mwvjrlfycweazpkse2q0fa to see how it's really done.

https://fountain.fm/episode/stK55NNBiTBov3DUIgur

boo-bury 10mo ago

One immediate correction, it wasn’t Dave Jones who helped develop v4v, but was John C. Dvorak who created the production model. It also goes back further than 2015.

I see again this tried and tired meme that v4v is specifically Bitcoin payments, and it’s not. Lighting is one form of many. Voicemails, packages, artwork, story ideas, and more all exist as an equal form of value.

ChadF and 33 others 10mo ago

I posted something similar. I think 2015 was a typo but who knows or cares honestly.

V4V is all about low time preference.

boo-bury 10mo ago

https://lnbeats.com/album/a2d2e313-9cbd-5169-b89c-ab07b33ecc33/aHR0cHM6Ly9maWxlcy5oZXljaXRpemVuLnh5ei9Tb25ncy9BbGJ1bXMvVGhlLUhleWNpdGl6ZW4tRXhwZXJpZW5jZS9QYXlUaGVCaWxscy5tcDM

inpc 10mo ago

I’ve been exploring V4V the last 6 months, making some extremely niche content that makes me happy. It hasn’t created much income but it has put a big smile on my face and I enjoy doing it a lot.

Maybe I could earn more, making less niche content, not choosing to be on the world’s most niche platforms, begging people to smash the button and contorting my face into increasing dumber thumbnail images or whatever but I don’t. It’s my choice. I’m making the thing I want to do they way I want to do it. I’m making a choice and it’s on me. Cool?!

Everything is everything and life is a long wiggly road. WoooOOOoooOoo.

See, I’m enjoying life, life is good!

As a side note, I get more money from non bitcoiners. I put this down to most Bitcoin people spending any free cash buying more bitcoin and not the failure of an alternative way of working.

rasputin 10mo ago

I consider most of the micropayments used by most v4v that I know of, including podcasting 2.0 and zaps, to be spam on the Lightning network. Because they are mostly below the dust limit and get burned in a force close.

People don't realise this either because they are transacting within custodial platforms (I guess primal, fountain, wos etc), or they haven't taken a look at the fees they pay.

If they did, and/or if they didn't use custodians, they will quickly find that the fees are not economical. 1 sat fee on 21 sat zap is almost 4.8%.

Why the 1 sat fee? Because no rational routing node or LSP would want to route dust for free due to the risk of force closes, and they can't very well raise their ppm fees, so they instead set a base fee to discourage spam.

We are currently seeing empty mempools and low fees. Now imagine the same dynamics with full mempools and a volatile on-chain fee market.

Ecash could be a way to fix this, and should be a natural step for custodial services by only creating a lightning transaction when the balance is well above the dust limit.

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