Avatar
Kis Sean
0d6f3fb7f3c83755ea731380516167da6691cea0d7ddf4865505d291687ca343
Replying to Avatar Kis Sean

https://learnmeabitcoin.com/faq/segregated-witness

About BTC segregated witness.

Very interesting, gives me much more insights, SegWit create a new transaction that move the signature outside of the block. Signatures are used to unlock the transaction to a certain account. Signatures are stored inside the witness data blob (3MB max).

Some interesting points to share:

1. The propagating block size on the internet can be 1MB or up to 4MB. Pre-SegWit nodes only accepts the 1MB max transaction section, but they will not accept the signature data, so they won't verify those transactions. But most nodes are SegWit compatible now (84% according to bitaps), so the size will be sum of transaction section + signature section/witness data blob, which is limited to 4MB under the new rule.

2. After taproot, multi-sig scripts and arbitrary data can be put in witness data blob.

I think it could be the main reason why ordinals happened way after "Defi-summer". Because according to banklesstimes, "BTC's Taproot adoption rate touched its all-time high (ATH) of 4.131%, while its utilization soared to 1.553% ".

3. But since the actual transaction block is only 1MB, everything in the witness data blob gets a 75% off discount. (They didn't anticipate the witness data blob will be used in this way). Plus, there's no rule limiting how much witness data is allowed, so ordinals can fill the data blob up until the 4MB limit (including some necessary data fields).

4. In order for ordinals to success, besides pushing the adaption of taproot, the ordinal client software also need to be widely adapted.

非常有趣,让我有了更多的见解。SegWit创建了一个新的转账方式,将签名移出区块。签名是用于将转账解锁到特定帐户的。现在签名存储在witness data blob(最大3MB)中。

以下是一些要点分享:

1. 在互联网上传播的区块大小可以为1MB或最多4MB。Pre-SegWit节点仅接受最大1MB的,转账数据部分的blob。但它们不会接受签名数据,因此它们不会验证SegWit后这些交易。但现在大多数节点都兼容SegWit(根据bitaps的数据,达到了84%),因此大小将是 交易部分+签名部分/witness data blob的总和,该总和在新规则下限制为4MB。

2. 在Taproot之后,多重签名脚本 和 任意数据可以放入witness data blob中。我认为这可能是为什么ordinals发生在“Defi-summer”之后的主要原因,因为根据banklesstimes的报道,“BTC的Taproot采用率达到了历史最高值(ATH)的4.131%,而其利用率飙升至1.553%”。

3. 但由于实际转账部分仅为1MB,因此见证数据块中的所有内容都会享受75%的折扣。(他们没有预料到witness data blob会以这种方式被使用)。此外,没有规定单witness data blob这部分的上限,因此ordinals可以将witness data blob填满,直到4MB的限制(需要包含一些必要的区块数据)。

4. 想要推ordinals的话,除了推动taproot的采用外,ordinals客户端软件还需要得到广泛的采用。

https://blog.bitmex.com/ordinals-data/

#BTC #SegWit #ordinal #taproot #inscription

BTC is already getting very expensive for frequent on chain transactions, average about over $1.5 per transaction. LN is basically a must.

Btw, there are smaller transactions that's about 400-500 bytes; 3sats/virtual byte; around $0.1. But they are well optimized ones.

BTC对于频繁的链上交易已经变得非常昂贵,平均每笔交易费用已经超过1.5美元。闪电网络基本上是必须的。

顺便说一下,还有一些更小的交易,大约400-500字节;每虚拟字节3sat;大约0.1美元。但它们是被优化得非常的那些。

https://blockchair.com/bitcoin

Replying to Avatar Kis Sean

https://learnmeabitcoin.com/faq/segregated-witness

About BTC segregated witness.

Very interesting, gives me much more insights, SegWit create a new transaction that move the signature outside of the block. Signatures are used to unlock the transaction to a certain account. Signatures are stored inside the witness data blob (3MB max).

Some interesting points to share:

1. The propagating block size on the internet can be 1MB or up to 4MB. Pre-SegWit nodes only accepts the 1MB max transaction section, but they will not accept the signature data, so they won't verify those transactions. But most nodes are SegWit compatible now (84% according to bitaps), so the size will be sum of transaction section + signature section/witness data blob, which is limited to 4MB under the new rule.

2. After taproot, multi-sig scripts and arbitrary data can be put in witness data blob.

I think it could be the main reason why ordinals happened way after "Defi-summer". Because according to banklesstimes, "BTC's Taproot adoption rate touched its all-time high (ATH) of 4.131%, while its utilization soared to 1.553% ".

3. But since the actual transaction block is only 1MB, everything in the witness data blob gets a 75% off discount. (They didn't anticipate the witness data blob will be used in this way). Plus, there's no rule limiting how much witness data is allowed, so ordinals can fill the data blob up until the 4MB limit (including some necessary data fields).

4. In order for ordinals to success, besides pushing the adaption of taproot, the ordinal client software also need to be widely adapted.

非常有趣,让我有了更多的见解。SegWit创建了一个新的转账方式,将签名移出区块。签名是用于将转账解锁到特定帐户的。现在签名存储在witness data blob(最大3MB)中。

以下是一些要点分享:

1. 在互联网上传播的区块大小可以为1MB或最多4MB。Pre-SegWit节点仅接受最大1MB的,转账数据部分的blob。但它们不会接受签名数据,因此它们不会验证SegWit后这些交易。但现在大多数节点都兼容SegWit(根据bitaps的数据,达到了84%),因此大小将是 交易部分+签名部分/witness data blob的总和,该总和在新规则下限制为4MB。

2. 在Taproot之后,多重签名脚本 和 任意数据可以放入witness data blob中。我认为这可能是为什么ordinals发生在“Defi-summer”之后的主要原因,因为根据banklesstimes的报道,“BTC的Taproot采用率达到了历史最高值(ATH)的4.131%,而其利用率飙升至1.553%”。

3. 但由于实际转账部分仅为1MB,因此见证数据块中的所有内容都会享受75%的折扣。(他们没有预料到witness data blob会以这种方式被使用)。此外,没有规定单witness data blob这部分的上限,因此ordinals可以将witness data blob填满,直到4MB的限制(需要包含一些必要的区块数据)。

4. 想要推ordinals的话,除了推动taproot的采用外,ordinals客户端软件还需要得到广泛的采用。

https://blog.bitmex.com/ordinals-data/

#BTC #SegWit #ordinal #taproot #inscription

* 3MB is not max if the witness blobs are not all transaction data. It's that usually the signature data to transaction data is about 3:1. So, in order to have all 1MB transactions, around 3MB witness blob is required, that's how they design the limit.

*witness data blob 3MB 只是在想放满转账的时候的封顶。因为签名 和 转账 通常体积比是 3:1。 所以想要放满1MB转账,大概需要3MB签名;这也是这两者尺寸限制在4MB的设计依据

https://learnmeabitcoin.com/faq/segregated-witness

About BTC segregated witness.

Very interesting, gives me much more insights, SegWit create a new transaction that move the signature outside of the block. Signatures are used to unlock the transaction to a certain account. Signatures are stored inside the witness data blob (3MB max).

Some interesting points to share:

1. The propagating block size on the internet can be 1MB or up to 4MB. Pre-SegWit nodes only accepts the 1MB max transaction section, but they will not accept the signature data, so they won't verify those transactions. But most nodes are SegWit compatible now (84% according to bitaps), so the size will be sum of transaction section + signature section/witness data blob, which is limited to 4MB under the new rule.

2. After taproot, multi-sig scripts and arbitrary data can be put in witness data blob.

I think it could be the main reason why ordinals happened way after "Defi-summer". Because according to banklesstimes, "BTC's Taproot adoption rate touched its all-time high (ATH) of 4.131%, while its utilization soared to 1.553% ".

3. But since the actual transaction block is only 1MB, everything in the witness data blob gets a 75% off discount. (They didn't anticipate the witness data blob will be used in this way). Plus, there's no rule limiting how much witness data is allowed, so ordinals can fill the data blob up until the 4MB limit (including some necessary data fields).

4. In order for ordinals to success, besides pushing the adaption of taproot, the ordinal client software also need to be widely adapted.

非常有趣,让我有了更多的见解。SegWit创建了一个新的转账方式,将签名移出区块。签名是用于将转账解锁到特定帐户的。现在签名存储在witness data blob(最大3MB)中。

以下是一些要点分享:

1. 在互联网上传播的区块大小可以为1MB或最多4MB。Pre-SegWit节点仅接受最大1MB的,转账数据部分的blob。但它们不会接受签名数据,因此它们不会验证SegWit后这些交易。但现在大多数节点都兼容SegWit(根据bitaps的数据,达到了84%),因此大小将是 交易部分+签名部分/witness data blob的总和,该总和在新规则下限制为4MB。

2. 在Taproot之后,多重签名脚本 和 任意数据可以放入witness data blob中。我认为这可能是为什么ordinals发生在“Defi-summer”之后的主要原因,因为根据banklesstimes的报道,“BTC的Taproot采用率达到了历史最高值(ATH)的4.131%,而其利用率飙升至1.553%”。

3. 但由于实际转账部分仅为1MB,因此见证数据块中的所有内容都会享受75%的折扣。(他们没有预料到witness data blob会以这种方式被使用)。此外,没有规定单witness data blob这部分的上限,因此ordinals可以将witness data blob填满,直到4MB的限制(需要包含一些必要的区块数据)。

4. 想要推ordinals的话,除了推动taproot的采用外,ordinals客户端软件还需要得到广泛的采用。

https://blog.bitmex.com/ordinals-data/

#BTC #SegWit #ordinal #taproot #inscription

关于NFT艺术品是同质化艺术品,没什么特别大的价值这方面我认同。我还很讨厌他们直接把艺术品的文件都上BTC链。(其他只是把那个艺术品附带的nft上链)

#[3]

有先例了,发行方没注册copyright。那就算有法律立足点 估计还是要扯皮很久。不过你直接绕过发行方自己mint的话,社区肯定不承认,毕竟以后可能有法律不承认的麻烦。改得不多的抄袭的话估计也一样

https://www.artmajeur.com/en/magazine/2-art-news/yuga-labs-says-it-has-no-copyright-registration-for-bored-ape-yacht-club-images/332779

我觉得已经在发生了,其实现代社会 武力更多是威慑作用,更多是技术/商业/文化 上带来的思想的冲突。

当然也有人把这些情况成为 颜色革命

我觉得是因为“去中心化”这个词的误导性,去中心化目的还是为了建立一个可靠的集中的社区 (社区内部的矛盾可以很大)。 准确点说是 手段上绕过不希望加入的组织/社区,形成一个超越地域/文化/民族的中心 去对抗这些旧的中心体系

https://twitter.com/toghrulmaharram/status/1632626914396368896

似乎以后发展方向就是要co-mine一条链;不过BTC不升级还是无法和侧链做安全有效的信息交互。

而且这似乎是segwit之后就可以做到的,并不需要taproot; 我猜可能是BTC社区现在的意志也很混杂,在20/21年的defi和NFT疯狂热潮后,很多BTC的社区的人也迫不及待的想要分一杯羹。这没什么好说的,市场也能衍生出不少的好技术,但这技术路线实在喜欢不起来

https://twitter.com/_prestwich/status/1632751369353564163

原来就是一个web app,这样我觉得还是用浏览器更好。反正都要挂vpn,那每次使用完删除浏览记录安全系数高太多了。 或者定期删除/无痕浏览

以下是我对日本民族的偏见:现实中不一定,但他们在网络世界还是有相当大的群聚需求的;而且他们对很多需要繁琐操作的事 对其他民族而言更能接受,例如他们的产品设计,手机和“落后的”互联网;

然后加上之前twitter突然发疯 封号,所以发生群体性出逃

这些只是工具而已,最重要还是人怎么做。我能想到最 非暴力 能引发好的社会转变的方式就是抗议游行 -》罢工了;我觉得现实中可能感觉到“不改变不行的”还是少数,所以才会在压迫到极点的时候才出现白纸运动。

所以,短时间内可能不要期望太多....

freedom of speech vs freedom of reach的问题,其实在发达国家没多少人真的需要这类平台。日本人是有点偏差的例外。

它的存在本身其实就是为了给发达国家不喜欢twitter,facebook的人一个藏身之所的,算是锦上添花吧。其他方案还有mastodon,bluesky之类。我现在觉得对强审核的国家和地区没什么用,这些地区的人想要言论自由基本上要vpn。既然用了vpn了,twitter对他们的言论也不会有多少限制。

对于国内在运行的relay,不要没挂vpn直接连。还有,我希望运营者不会被盯上吧

Replying to Avatar Kis Sean

Eigenlayer propose a solution to the fractured trust on ETH's layer 2/ sidechains. Problem: In order to utilized the full trust of L1, L2s and sidechains need to deploy/prove (rollup) their apps on the EVM(Ethereum Virtual Machine). But that's not generally possible, such as data availability layers, oracles, new VMs, bridges and trusted execution environments. To build trust around those parts introduces new problems like: it's hard to build new decentralized trust networks; even it's built, the trust level will not be the same as L1/ETH/BTC; the new trust network will split away the value on the L1.

The idea of EigenLayer is to introduce a new layer between ETH and those problem modules. EigenLayer makes each one of these modules into a containers. ETH owner can stake their eth on one of these container to provide security and trust to it. In return, the container will payback in fees to those stakers. Basic structure as below:

Eth owner -- ETH main-net -----(restake to one of the container)---- EigenLayer ---(fees back to staker)--- Container(Modules needs trust/secruity)

View this from another aspect, it's like a open investment market for stakers to put their stakes on. I think this is very important, besides oracles, data availability is also a huge problem to a blockchain system without the involvement of another blockchain. And I have a lot of doubts for the storage solution like Arweave or Filecoin.

Although there are solutions like using zk proof of another chain's state to built trust towards that chain without any 3rd party involvement. But you still have to rely on the chain's own security/trust. To get everything done under the security of one chain is necessary for scaling up. (Targeting the problems EigenLayer propose to solve.) This also fits how I vision the decentralized future that only 1~3 main chains will dominant over 99% of the networks and traffics.

Honestly this sounds like a proof of stake and more modules version of co-mining to me, share some security resources of the main chain to the sidechain. It just makes sense.

Eigenlayer提出了解决ETH L2/侧链上分散的信任/安全问题的解决方案。现有的问题:为了充分利用L1的信任/安全性,L2和侧链需要在以太坊虚拟机(EVM)上部署/证明(rollup)其应用程序。但是这通常是不可能的,例如数据可用性(测试数据是不是真的安全地存放在L2上)、oracle、新的VM、桥 和 新的受信任的执行环境。在这些部分建立信任会引入新问题(最简单就是要发一条新链,不一定要新token),例如:很难建立新的去中心化信任网络;即使建立了,信任级别也远远赶不上L1/ETH/BTC;新的去中心信任网络将使L1上的价值/信任分裂。EigenLayer是在ETH和这些问题/模块之间引入一个新层。EigenLayer将每一个问题的模块都变成一个容器。ETH所有者可以在这些容器之一上押注他们的ETH,以为其提供安全性和信任度。作为回报,容器将向这些押注者支付费用。基本结构如下:

ETH所有者——ETH主网——(重新押注到一个容器)——EigenLayer——(回报费用到押注者)——容器(就是需要信任/安全性的模块)

从另一方面看,这就像一个开放的投资市场,供押注者对喜欢有潜力的模块进行押注,以获得回报。我认为这非常重要,除了预言机之外,数据可用性对于一个没有利用到其他区块链的 区块链系统 是一个巨大的问题。毕竟对于像Arweave或Filecoin这样的存储解决方案,我有很多疑虑。

虽然有其他解决方案,例如使用另一个链的zk证明状态来建立对该链的信任,而不需要任何第三方参与。但是仍然需要依赖该链的自身安全性/信任度。想要有效扩容,大部分的活都需要在一条链所形成的系统下解决。(其实就是EigenLayer提出要解决的那些问题)。这也符合我对去中心化未来的看法,即只有1~3条主链会占据99%的网络和流量。

老实说,这对我来说听起来像是一个 Proof of stake 和更模块化版的co-mining,共享主链的安全资源到侧链。相当符合主链扩容的直觉思路。

#EigenLayer #ETH #Layer2 #sidechain #coMining

我瞄了一下,他们是搞了一条链(?没明说是什么系统),然后利用ordinal在btc上记录block data, BTC不会验证它的内容 = 它不利用btc的安全性。然后再在那条链上搞rollup。所以twitter也有人不认同sovereign rollup 是rollup。

还有第三方的rollup 运算和数据都是他们第三方自己管理的,更加不会放到BTC链上验证。

题外话,我个人很讨厌ordinal这条技术路线 (对链上放小图片也很厌恶,不过这不是技术层面上的),它把sat都标记了顺序,让部分sats失去了fungible的特性。我理解中这是BTC可编程性升级中相比其他社区提议比较差的那种,后续的继续升级可能也要很多很生硬的hack。不过现在这势头,估计btc会在这条技术路线上发生很多斗争。

https://rollkit.dev/blog/sovereign-rollups-on-bitcoin/

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/sovereign-rollup-rollkit-pitches-second-020308146.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAAHzRQFjQZByoiPbmhxHdR0VRXZwna_RtKVbHEw7DlOTr6lf1nLQdtT5eEs5vQVw8-2nR9Z9ealMaxKm01PZR7Ope9LFFM2dkaBCzN5af0J1Dpv8BUNUIj6yPsZv92BVGMQD5R79liDZMB5I-lCHldDXywbRgJ12WZuiwEFu6oBr

#BTC #ScaleUp #Rollkit #Stack #MassAdaption