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bodhi.inbound
175b18a4d0d4da83f6068db442279f89d96776f6d9aacf3d153d5173ab815afd
Bitcoin Continualist. Block after block after block.

He had Andreas on like 4 times. The 4th time he was re-explaining shit that Joe claimed to have understood the first 2 or 3 times. Joe just isn't smart enough to get it. It happens. Oh, and this is coming from a fan of Joe. in fact, listening to Andreas on JRE is what Orange Pilled me.

All you gotta do is breathe and relax. And be humble and stack sats. Then just breathe, Deep breath in, hold it, steady, slowly let it out. Relax. Stack more sats. Everything else, will work itself out. Breathe. Relax. Stay humble. Stack sats. Breathe. Relax. Stay humble. Stack sats. Breathe........

Replying to Avatar BTC Sessions

Moment of vulnerability here, wondering if anyone has had a similar experience before.

I completely LOST it on another person's kid today when I thought they had intentionally hurt my daughter, but I was wrong and now I feel horrible.

Context: on a road trip with another family. The other child has behavioral issues and has been known to get physical in the past with others at school and daycare. Over the course of the trip he's been pretty poorly behaved and aggressive but not downright violent... but I had it in the back of my mind that it could happen.

My daughter was playing with him in the other room, then suddenly runs out screaming, bleeding from the mouth and saying that he had hit her. I've never experienced anyone intentionally hurt my little girl and I instantly flew into protective dad mode before properly assessing the situation. In my mind he had punched her in the mouth.

I stormed into the room and flew into a rage, screaming at the absolute top of my lungs, pointing my finger in the kid's face saying to NEVER touch her EVER again. His mom was right behind me. He was likely terrified and I was honestly way beyond any level of anger I've ever felt.

In the next minute or two my daughter then clarified that it was an accident and they had been playing rough but had unintentionally slammed into each other.

The boy cried, his mom was in shock, and she also had tears in her eyes. I feel absolutely awful about the whole situation, I should have had more self control, and I'm a little in shock how quickly I became an absolute monster to a young kid.

I apologized in the moment to both of them and sent a message after saying I should have handled the situation better.

Just really upset about the whole thing, unsure how to proceed now. Any girl dads out there ever have this happen to them?

I can totally understand this type of reaction, and even taking it much further, IF the person who "hit" your daughter had been another adult...

Alcohol is fiat. I know it's trash but I NEED it to deal with the normies.

I used to read Max Keiser's tweets and think he was crazy. It took me several years to begin to realize how profound and relevant those words were. I wasn't ready. It took growth and knowledge.

Replying to Avatar Rusty Russell

First up, I want to recognize that this is an uncomfortable topic! Bitcoin is inevitably changing towards user-pays, and that's not all positive. But facts we don't like are still facts: can't engineer a solution if we can't think about the problems.

There are three kinds of bitcoiners.

A. Those who can afford any fee.

B. Those who can afford a UTXO, but not often.

C. Those who can't afford a UTXO.

Nobody worries about the A group (and in the early days, that was everyone). Obviously Lightning (my area!) caters to the B group, and we want it to be as large as possible. To do this we can (1) make lightning as resiliant as we can so onchain spends are rare, (2) make bitcoin as efficient as possible so we can cram as much as we can into what we have.

(1) Making lightning more resilient and reliable is engineering. Lots of people working on this, even before we get soft-forks which could help further.

(2) More efficiency has two benefits: obviously if your own onchain spends are 20% smaller, that's 20% cheaper. But if *everyone's* onchain spends are 20% smaller, that means fees are lower *for everyone* too (and it's non-linear). So we really care about all Bitcoin usage! Some things are obvious wins: Taproot so you can avoid even putting the script onchain in many cases, FROST so you can cram your 2 of 3 or other scheme into a single key and signature. We know we want to get more aggressive with sharing one signature across multiple inputs (Cross Input Signature Aggregation), but that needs a lot more research, and a soft-fork.

But even with all these, the math is clear: some people, even if you somehow gave them their wealth in a UTXO, it couldn't afford its own fees to spend. The C group is real. Spoiler alert: we don't have an answer for this! But let's look at some approaches people have tried.

Firstly, there are attempts to move these people into the B group: give them long enough that maybe fees will reach a point they can afford. This seems unlikely to me:

1. As fees increase everyone will start doing the work to take advantage of low fee times, and that itself means that low-fee times won't be so low.

2. These schemes tend to increase onchain footprints, so they need fees to drop a lot to overcome that (typical is 2x the transaction size, so you need fees to halve to gain anything).

3. If you really can't afford the fee, you probably also can't afford to wait.

4. You still haven't actually dealt with those who really, really can't afford the fees. Ever.

Another suggestion is that someone (e.g. a lightning service provider) will lock up funds which would cover fees, in case something goes wrong. This doesn't work economically, because nobody is paying $100 for a $5 user (not at scale), but it doesn't even work mathematically: the reason some people will have small UTXOs is because there are not enough sats for 10 billion people with any realistic distribution.

There are two basic approaches left:

1. Group people, so they fall into the B category (i.e. onchain tx is possible, but expensive).

2. Trust someone, but rely on incentives.

1. Grouping people is possible, but they need to work together if somenthing goes wrong. So grouping inside a community is probably better than grouping with randos.

For example, there are various tree-of-transaction schemes where you go onchain only if the coordinator fails/goes rogue, and how much it costs you depends on whether anyone near you in the tree pays to get themselves out. These are basically free if nothing goes wrong (one UTXO required for thousands of users!). But this is subject to ghettoization, where the coordinator makes sure all the C people are grouped together, knowing none of them can afford the transactions they need to get their funds back. It's particularly bad because the coordinator can insert its own fake "whales" to make it look like it's not ghettoized.

You can play with incentives here, too: more research needed. The details matter!

2. Relying on incentives.

As a simple example, lightning-connected e-cash mints. They can't rug individuals very easily, they have to rug everyone together (or go fractional and rug the last ones to exit). Maybe with enough anonymity and reputation, these would be Good Enough.

More ambitious would be a single UTXO held for multiple people by a coordinator. Can we make it so that if a coordinator is dishonest, you can force them to burn your funds? Maybe burn more than your funds (ie. a bond)? Won't get your money, but it aligns incentives so they're not motivated to rug you. The details here really matter!

There's a cute scheme which has been proposed where the coordinator pays a temporary bond, and asserts that they actually have everyone's signature to transfer the funds. If nobody challenges within a week, they get the bond back and the funds move. If someone challenges, all the signatures are put onchain, and if they're not all valid, the bond gets half-burned and half-given to the (successful) challenger. This is hard to make work, though. Someone needs to get the money to challenge (hard if you don't have the money in the first place, plus it's hard to prove to someone you *didn't* sign something!), and then make sure nobody gets the challenge bond before them (in particular, a dishonest coordinator, seeing the game is up, completes the successful challenge *themselves* and gets half their bond back), and make sure someone can't grief and delay the settlement indefinitely or bankrupt the coordinator.

More research needed, here, too.

Summary

A longer post than I had expected to write. And it's buried in the middle of a thread nobody will read. (I do this sometimes. I suck at marketing I guess!)

Sub-fee bitcoin amounts will have tradeoffs, involving trusting someone who has more money than you (at least, in someone's competence, even if their *financial* incentives can be made to match yours). This is difficult to build well, and not a very exciting thing to build today, so it hasn't really happened (custodial things are much, much easier!).

This is also a key reason I believe we need to make Bitcoin more expressive: if we can do *more* with our own UTXOs, we can build better solutions. And by "we" I mean "someone smarter than me" of course!

Feedback welcome!

I read it.

Replying to Avatar Lyn Alden

You tolerate other people ten times more if you know ahead of time that you have a shared principal with them. You'll disagree around the margins but realize you're basically on the same page.

Back in like the 1950s USA, people felt that sense with their neighbors, church, and even government. They might disagree on things, and there were some shitty downsides to that (anyone not in the majority) but they were like, flag-waiving Americans. So a question is how to recreate that, and more broadly than it once was.

And ironically, as shitty as the authoritarian economic and legal situation is in many ways, people in Egypt today feel that way today. There's a substantial sense of unity or shared ideals, aside from a small percent of extremist outliers. That's true for many developing places.

One of the major strengths of the "bitcoin community" is this set of shared identity. Bitcoiners will loudly argue with each other, but they know they have at least one foundational shared agreement. That's healthy.

There were times, at like conference side-parties, where I noticed I was standing in a friendly discussion circle with like an anarcho-capialist to the literal right of me, a progressive to the literal left of me, a human rights advocate from an authoritarian state in front of me, a billionaire capitalist with pragmatic politics also in front of me, and us standing in a circle happily talking and basically friends. It's because we have at least one shared major principle that brings us there. A unifying factor for which, as we enter discussions for which we might disagree, we know we can build common ground upon.

As certain countries get hollowed out, and as neighborhoods become more remote and distinct, I continue to believe that local in-person bitcoin communities are absolutely profound. Regular meetups help exchange local fiat with bitcoin P2P, help educate people on the latest tech, help bring people from different viewpoints together, etc. Absolutely essential.

I met Guy Swann, Peter McCormack, Max Keiser, Rockstar, Dunberg, Nico and Opti, and Larry Lephard in Nashville. My only Bitcoin hero I didn't get to check off the list is YOU LYN! We need to get a pic and fix that!