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Han Sanders
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Can you read this? Probably not, I'm invisible

I think it will stay this way for some time still, then it will get better because of better tools (like tailored DVMs that now popup).

Then if Nostr popularity picks up because of its special qualities it will get worse again.

Most people will use Nostr to emulate the current social networks, maybe even create exxagarated versions with addictions feeding tools (like tailored DVMs that now popup)

Chaums ecash did not fly at least in part because nobody had solved the unconfiscatable, scarce digital commodity problem, there were no reliable sources of value on computers.

That Bitcoin and Lightning were invented makes dipping in and out of ecash possible, and makes Chaumian ecash suddenly a useful tool and solution for different problems than BTC and LN.

Its IMO (maybe even in its current highly beta state) at the very least useful for local meatspace or trusted networks where you have small transactions, interactions and need to keep score. Caution obviously should be taken with it, balances kept low and temporary and trust (between mint&user) is necessary and not minimized in chaumian ecash. Even with its drawbacks I think it could power the thriving of circular economies, it's quite a good replacement for normal cash or (trad)Bank-transactions.

Maybe a bad analogy could help illustrate: if you have an induction furnace and an oven for cooking your meals inside in a safe, reliable and comfortable way where only major fuckups get you burned, you might still want to add a barbecue. Although its harder to get the meal right, you then have to be outside and are more likely to get burned or get wet a BBQ is still not a useless tool. I think its clear whats what in the analogy? For the right job, circumstances, and with proper handling, something which is otherwise not very good can be a delightful tool.

Also, what is a likely higher-order effect of regularly sending text-strings which represent monetary value:

[ ] more focus on encrypted and private communication

[ ] less focus on encrypted and private communication

Replying to Avatar Seth For Privacy

Summarizing my thoughts on ecash

For some reason this ecash trend seems to be gaining steam instead of going away, so I'll try my best to detail my thoughts on ecash into one post.

1. The incentives are broken

Ecash finds itself between a rock and a hard place. For users to trust the mint, they need to know that the people behind the mint are trustworthy. If the people running the mint reveal their identities (or even just nyms), they're a trivial target for regulators and law enforcement as it's clear a mint is an MSB.

If the people behind a mint don't reveal their identities or nyms, users of that mint are subject to trivial rug pulls with no recourse. Which do you prefer as a user? Mint operator rug pulls or government rug pulls?

If a mint had been targeted like Samourai Wallet was, instead of just a potential privacy loss, all users would have lost all of their Bitcoin.

2. Ecash is not "self-custodial"

For some reason this concept of ecash being "self-custodial" is a thing, merely because the tokens themselves are self-custodied (and require proper backups of seed phrases etc.) While the lines get a bit weird, it's important to separate two things:

1. The asset people want is Bitcoin, not ecash tokens.

2. The asset people give up custody on is Bitcoin.

The ecash tokens themselves are completely worthless IOUs without the Bitcoin behind them, so even if I can take custody of my ecash tokens, I have 100% given up custody of my sats to a third-party.

Because of this, talking about ecash as self-custodial is disingenuous -- no one wants empty IOUs, they want Bitcoin. When they use ecash they do not have custody of their Bitcoin.

3. Ecash still requires all of the hurdles of Bitcoin self-custody

The hardest hurdle for many people to adopting Bitcoin is the simple first step -- writing down 12 words and making sure not to lose them. With ecash you still have this single greatest barrier of entry as you must backup a seed phrase or secret in order to restore your ecash tokens.

4. There is no incentive for custodians to implement ecash

While a custodian could switch to ecash out of the goodness of their heart, the incentives are broken for custodians. Not only does ecash harm the UX their users are used to (not having to store a secret seed phrase), it also introduces additional infrastructure complexity. Instead of just running a database, now they have to run additional mint software to provide their users with tokens, and handle support cases where users lose their tokens.

In theory a custodian could just also store the seed phrase for their users, but then have we actually improved on custodians at all? They even have custody of the ecash tokens in that case.

5. Custody is a line that cannot be crossed

The core of what makes Bitcoin unique is that we can actually take custody of it ourselves, gaining immense freedom and self-sovereignty through a bit of personal responsibility. Even though I am a massive proponent of building better privacy tools, sacrificing custody to get better privacy is a non-option for me.

Surely we can do better and build privacy tools on top of Bitcoin (or directly into Bitcoin's consensus layer) that allow us to have both privacy and self-sovereignty via self-custody.

I will not give up custody of my Bitcoin, no matter what, and you shouldn't either. "Better custodians" are just custodians with extra steps, and still strip us of self-sovereignty and thus freedom.

6. Time is a more scarce resource than even Bitcoin

Even though I have been very outspoken on what I view as a pointless venture, I am not here to stop anyone from building what they enjoy in the space. Devs working on ecash are free to do so as of course I have no control over them, though I fear that time spent on improving custodians is time that we will not get back. It's clear that the US gov and many in the EU are seeking to ramp up their attacks on Bitcoin privacy and self-custody, and our time to build tools to route around them is growing shorter and shorter.

P.S. - None of what I write is a direct attack on any ecash dev, and I have immense respect and personal relationships with most of the people working on this stuff. Respect for an individual doesn't have to mean I agree with them on every avenue they pursue.

Ecash is the purest/leanest form of money as data. It can probably not get any leaner than just a text string.

Trust without guards or third parties is central to many relations (also over the internet) where value is exchanged, for example any provider-user relation is inherently (partly) trustbased. Blinded Ecash can be an improvement of the risk you face in these relations, also compared to solutions using traditional banking payments.

Because of the points above, and for many other reasons, the payment solutions possible through ecash can be swifter, more private, less burdensome in resources, bigger in transaction throughput than a.o. things like Lightning network, ApplePay, Visa/mastercard

Ecash isn't so much a store of value, but it is up there with the best medium of exchange.

Do you think he shouldn't put his skin into games so much?

Yes, cashu is the leanest and purest manifestation of money as data, to lend a phrase, fedimint is not (at least not the leanest).

I don't know, maybe they don't have a public figurehead or foundation with a standing place they could hound down? Oh no wait, they do have that and more!

Replying to Avatar sommerfeld

nostr:npub12rv5lskctqxxs2c8rf2zlzc7xx3qpvzs3w4etgemauy9thegr43sf485vg this is the ecash lobby people complain about 👆

But he is not wrong!

No, I don't think it automatically creates an ecash token. However as an introduction to a new app like cashu.me takes some getting used to, and will probably involve some messing around, you can create an ecash token without being conscious about it, and as soon as a token is created its value will be deducted from your balance, which can be quite confusing. I think something like that happened

What if you click the "pending X sats" ( with refresh symbol)? It will show if this ecash value is still pending (not spent or at least not received)

Most likely possibility: did you (by accident) create an ecash-token of 15000 (e)sats? If thats the case you can click the outgoing '15000 Ecash' under 'History', it will open a popup with QR, (the ecash-token) click 'copy' to copy a cashu textstring, and 'close' to close the popup.

Then click 'receive' in mainscreen and paste the cashu textstring into the textbox and click 'receive' to redeem the token in your own wallet

Wouldn't it be better to set some arbitrary fixed limits to how many follows are possible, as that's way easier to implement for all clients, smaller for relays to save, which will give better and more predictable behaviour of nostr as social mediain general.

(Arbitrary fixed limits is how Bitcoin and twitter got their success)

Anyone who feels comfortable with that risk, because of his measures for anonymisation of the mint ownership, or his expectations of profit, or because he feels he is legally covered. Other reasons could be ignorance or unawareness of the risk, or for activism. Even apart from the last one I think we get plenty of mints.

Because of ecash characteristics, with at least some trust involved, and it just being text there is plenty of ways you can disguise your mint and you would need to have total communication crackdown to prevent transactions.

Even though its technically not a layer of Bitcoin, anything that can reduce the load of transactions on Bitcoin like cashu could do is important and not a distraction IMO