First of all, gm. Secondly, —
> that's fedimint.
Yeah but fedimint is just a big multisig. I just wish there was some sort of consensus mechanism for controlling a mint. It’s just a thought, i’m not smart enough to figure these things out and maybe cashu’s design wouldn’t even allow for something like that.
> mints can either be treated as an unlicensed money transmitter,
Agreed. I don’t see any regulated institution using cashu, it’s too private for them.
> or begin using the KYC feature that calle is working on right now
- Yeah what’s that all about 🤦🏻♂️lol
> perform fractional reserve free and clear.
- yeah this is definitely a deal breaker for cashu.
> the trick is to provide scalable self-custody and privacy without shapeshifting into a different species.
- Yep. Do you think any of the newly proposed soft forks will allow for this to be done on layer 2’s ? How about Ark and Bitvm2 ?
I get what you guys are saying but we can’t control what people do with the cash once it’s in their hands and it is more likely they will spend it in a business that reports earnings to the IRS or worse deposit it in a bank. The scenario you guys are bringing up only works if you are spending small amounts at like a mexican hot dog stand. It’s not many businesses that can justify bringing in large amounts of cash at a time. IMO, from the governments perspective, both cash and BTC can be traced so what matters is how it is obfuscated and how difficult it would be for an individual to do it themselves. Thats why i say for cash you need a business like a strip club or something to justify bringing in so much cash and you’d need multiple because eventually they are going to ask themselves how is it that all this dirty money is mostly being spent on this one strip club. You need a lot of money or people you trust that have these businesses which is not ideal. I get that bitcoin has a long way to go and needs more tools for privacy but i still believe you are more likely to succeed cleaning a ton of money at once with BTC than with cash and thus making it more fungible.
Thanks 🤙🏼
I honestly really love cashu, hate that it’s custodial of course but having the ability to print your own money and transact offline (as the sender of course) is just so incredible. I honestly don’t know of any other protocol that can do this. Lukechilds also proposed an ecash credit system that can let you hold a balance with a mint and only “risk” the amount money you are sending instead of the entire balance, further minimizing trust in the mint. If only there was a way to decentralize control of the mint
> how do you think laundering bitcoins works? it is not enough to break the blockchain analysis using a privacy tool. coinjoin and monero are not laundromats.
- True, i honestly get what you are saying but if we ever get a circular economy with bitcoin, and the person is able to use a privacy tool to break the link and deposit that bitcoin to multiple pseudonymous addresses, shouldn’t they theoretically be able to spend that bitcoin with no issues ?
ngl i am enjoying our debate. I like people that are willing to push back because i am not married to my opinions. It seems like you’re a monero maxi so im going to check your timeline later and see what else i can debate you about lmfao
Idk what laeserin uses but i’ve heard alot about simplex and matrix. Might want to check those out.
Just 4 years ? wtf
Would be nice if someone added the #bitcoin emoji like twitter used to have.
> you are comparing a medley of experimental error-prone contraptions that have not been battle-tested with the act of handing someone a piece of paper in meatspace
- how does something become battle tested if it doesn’t get tested in battle ? We have to at least try and use the protocols to assess their viability. Also it’s not transacting p2p that’s the problem , cash is definitely fungible in this scenario but it’s the reporting of these transactions that is a problem. Go to a gas station and pay for gas and you tell me if that bill doesn’t go directly into a ledger that gets sent once a year to the IRS for tax purposes. Just because it takes longer doesn’t make it better. They can pin point your geographical location based on where you are spending the money and also create a profile of you based on what you are purchasing. The only option a person really has to obfuscate these transactions would be to launder the money and that would require a lot of money to establish businesses that generate a lot of cash flow to be able to mix it with the revenue.
> bitcoins only behave like privacy coins 1% of the time if I'm being generous, and it is the most difficult way to use them, with the most unappealing tradeoffs.
- This is true but again development has not stopped. Coinjoins/silent payments/bolt12/etc. They will get better over time.
> people in real life who have serious business to attend to, like selling drugs and staying out of jail, have drifted away from bitcoin.
- This is true they use monero now.
> even when a near-perfect privacy coin is used, they still have to do very complicated things to wash their money and they often fail. one of the most common things they do with their ill-gotten cryptocurrency is to turn it back into banknotes and wash it using traditional methods
- im confused, this sounds like you are making my point that it is much more difficult to obfuscate cash through traditional methods. Either way, both methods are difficult but with cash you need to have businesses to launder it and takes a ton of money and coordination, with Bitcoin you can try to do it from your own computer. They both have trade offs but i believe cash requires much more preparation, planning and money.
My thoughts on cash being more fungible than bitcoin
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I get what you are saying but someone with millions to launder would have to set up probably multiple cash flow businesses in order to clean it, if they try to just buy things little by little it gives more tume for the cash to make it into a ledger and gives more opportunities for the government to catch on to the transactions. There is already advancements in bitcoins privacy like silent payments. Not a silver bullet but there are other tools like coinjoins and if the person knows what they are doing they might be able to use ecash. Development hasn’t stopped and all this can be done right from the computer. So i actually don’t agree that cash is more fungible.
How can cash be more fungible if it’s tracked with a serial number and people need to launder it in order to “clean” dirty money ?
I need to follow more people on nostr to increase my timeline feed because “Nostr Firehose” has some disgusting shit being posted and the mute button does nothing. nostr:npub12vkcxr0luzwp8e673v29eqjhrr7p9vqq8asav85swaepclllj09sylpugg Respectfully, you guys need to do some cleanup on your relays. I appreciate you guys do of course.