I imagine the worst mistake you can make as a programming beginner is to start your journey with vibe coding
Discussion
Well, at least it’s a start, may open the doors to some folks but 99.9999% of them will not get hooked anyway 😂
Doubt it. The worst mistake would be to not start at all.
I think it's a great learning tool, just like games are. Whatever keeps you engaged and curious. Vibe coding potentially does both.
Yes, could not agree more. The number of times in the past where I have started out with ideas but fallen into gumption traps, flummoxed by something trivial is too many to count. “Vibe coding” blasts through that into clear air.
The next gen of devs will be vibe coder, like the previous one was stackoverflow/google coder, and the previous one used books before the internet.
Each generation looses understanding on the basics of programming, while increasing productivity
Good way of putting it. Productivity aside, I think the final generation using AI will loose the understanding so much that it would be replaced completely by AI, which also doesn't understand what it is doing but following patterns, which I guess most devs do anyway lol
Things like nostr and cashu can only be brought to the world by those that understand basics programming and good pattern. so you’ll need them, but clients and higher level app will likely be vibe coded.
AI replacing us entirely is also a probability but that’s in a dystopian future
Interesting era we are living in. To witness the birth of the internet itself and then its different mutations is something already.
cashu is 1983 technology and vibe coded apps are going to be way more buggy than hand coded, and ai is just lossy compression of large volumes of data... and nostr's protocol is also backwards because fiatjaf didn't understand everything can be done easier and more stable with http
proper software takes time to build up, it took me a year part time to build the fastest relay and it's still not 100% production ready by my standards, not "vibe coded" lossy compression standards
what is great about nostr is it is simple enough that it will proliferate into a whole new class of infrastructure on the level we saw with HTTP in the last 20 years, and it's not going to happen overnight, and nobody is going to use vibe coded apps once they degenerate into a feature fest while nothing is tested and the errors of the AI continue to not be attended to by rigorous software engineers
I just think vibe coded is gonna be used on the last mile of development. AI generates on top of a multitude of framework and protocol (a huge pile of art down to the alphabet). I do think you can vibe code a ton of micro client/app that will be fun enough to use on top of nostr and cashu and many other things.
Also the advance of AI recently are breath taking, the latest models are performing really well to the point that I’m wondering if those machines will just make us looks like the retarded bitcoiner that we are
Do you have a repo for your relay ?
it changes nothing of substance, only real computer scientists can build good software, AI is just a shortcut to part way to something that will end up taking longer to fix than if it had been carefully hand written by people who understand software architecture
I'm in this camp yes. I just don't know for how long this will be the case.
AI doesn't have to be conscious to beat us at thinking; finding patterns, applying fitting solutions, assessing and refining.
Pro tips: if you are new don't copy-pasta, actually understand the thing and put in the work.
you're not giving enough
I tried learning a few years back, I kept getting stuck on errors just setting up my environment. Yeah… it was frustrating just to get started and I gave up.
Fast forward to today I love vibe coding. I may not be learning from scratch but I’ve leaned a heck of a lot more already just trying to debug my apps. Keep in mind I’m not trying to become a developer, that was never my goal - I just wanted to create stuff and now I’m doing that. I can actually use the stuff I make. I couldn’t care less who else uses it.
I think I’m where you were a few years back. I should probably give it another go just to build stuff for myself.
Bingo. Vibe coding is scratch your own itch on steroids. And nostr allows you to actually scratch it, and scratch it deeply.
You can make simple things like that, you can't make good things.
The tools for non-developers to build applications have existed for a long time, those are called no-code tools, and they can do pretty much the same as what non-developers can do with "vibe coding".
The code generated by vibe coding is bad, it has no consistency, it just finds a place to put something and places it there, it has no understanding of architecture, nor anything it's doing... and you may say this doesn't matter, but it's what matters the most.
Understanding what's happening in the application and being able to come up with a mental model of how the system works is fundamental to building software that's maintainable. Without that, you're just stacking bricks without a blueprint — it might stand for a while, but it will collapse under the slightest pressure.
When you rely on tools that generate code without structure, you lose control over the system.
Debugging becomes a nightmare. This is even true for experienced developers, it's harder to debug code you didn't write, and it's exponentially harder to debug code that has no structure.
Extending functionality becomes guesswork. And worst of all, you create technical debt from day one — not because the app is big, but because it's incoherent.
dont listen to the haters, i think AI will augment anyone's current skill level in anything, making everyone who bothers to learn it (which also takes time and effort) a force multiplier. its exciting and we are only scratching the surface so far..
carry on 😁
it's a good mean to learn something, but you'll get a much superficial knowledge compared to actually studying it
Yup I think I'm talking about being a developer, not the practice of programming
Vibe coding for the regular pleb is like watching a YouTube video on how to fix your plumbing and then be able to do it for your need. Doesn’t make you a master plumber but gives you agency to get the job done for the simple tasks.
Agree with that but I can hardly call that programming, maybe one-shot problem solving or something like that.
I’m a beginner, my learning began w being taught the very basics of memory, binary, ASCII, compilers, etc.
With the background knowledge and some practice on FreeCodeCamp (probably c. 2013) I developed an interest but had no urgent use apart from customizing a silly little blog and so didn’t stick with it.
I now automate as much of my job as I can. It’s helpful to have an existing process to automate, I just write whatever accomplishes the corresponding step. Instead of beginning with the LLM, I end with it by having it check what I wrote and observe what was wrong and stupid.
I know debugging teaches a lot, but I at least get to think back through the errors my version may cause and edge cases the LLM addressed.
true
Most of you say "I've learned so much vibe coding" and that's great. What you mean though is like learning physics by watching YouTube videos. What I mean is learning physics by going through hell, solving problems night over night and losing sleep and hope, thinking that you will fail, and then having the aha moment that nothing else can give you than sustained hard core pain.
Nothing can do the learning for you and your brain's capacity is limited. Experiencing that limit and being comfortable with it is what makes you a great coder / mathematician / physicist imo.
And that’s also what makes you able to debug properly. AI code has often bugs you are more equipped to find and address when you have coding experience without AI.
True, constraint breeds creativity
Well Said. Ai Cant Do It All, YET....
Reminds me of undergraduate
Can I learn how to drive a car without running an ultramarathon first, though?
I've been wondering about this so much. I'm learning Python and wondering if there's a point 😅
The deeper I get into Python the more I realize how important it is to understand code from the bottom to top.
So for now: vine coding is great fun for quickly getting ideas "on paper". As soon as that stage is over I think it's really important to know what you are doing and to have experts.
I think one day soon that’s going to be like saying the worst way you can start your journey is using a high level language instead of assembly or straight binary
Unfortunately, we're wired to follow the path of least resistance, and that's what prevents most people from reaching their full potential—especially today.
hard agree. I also really dig your work, calle. looking forward to whatever you make next.
The knowledge gap between junior and senior devs is about to boom.
Corporates will start hiring only 1 snr dev per team.
But what happens in a few years when those snr devs retire?