The sky isn’t a physical place that people ascend to after the tribulations begin?
Discussion
IMO, it both is and isn't. Heaven is within you. Heaven is completion and fullness. Metaphorically, the sky fits. Heaven (sky) contains everything.
I wouldn't listen to anyone who thinks they can explain Revelations, not even me. On the one hand, Jesus said the events of the end times aren't for us to know, so I don't think Revelations is about the end times. On the other hand, it seems to allude to practices which have been lost - the seals are probably the seals referenced in Sethian baptism ritual, but the complete ritual is lost along with the meaning, along with the people who did them. The animals appear to be astrological. Every explanation I've heard, including a months long study session with a priest, was fairly easy to poke holes in. Nobody knows anymore. I can only say that in my opinion it's not about the end of the physical world - just your world.
If no one can explain revelations, then it’s nonsensical to believe in. Why believe in it all?
There's no reason to believe in it. The only belief that is ever asked for is belief in Christ.
What human organization put Revelations in the Bible? What were their motivations? Why have they given people the impression that you have to believe all these extra things that Jesus didn't talk about?
And who asked for the belief in Christ?
The motivations of people are usually control and power.
Actually no one did. Jesus said if you believe, you're saved, and no one approaches the father except through him, but that also leaves a lot of room for interpretation. The way he worded it doesn't make me think belief is the necessary minimum - rather, that such a minimum has been passed if you believe. When he said, except through me," that sounds like Christ the noun speaking, rather then Jesus/Yeshua the proper noun. It demands attention to the meaning of Christ.
Control and power were exactly the reasons for which books were put in the NT - moderated by a general good will and desire to adhere to the truth. But moderated only. That council of bishops was called by Constantine for the express purpose of homogenizing Christianity and making it the imperial religion. We actually still have Constantine's letters to the bishops, so you can check this. Before the nicean councils, different churches used different texts. There was no uniformity. Some texts are now called apocrypha, and were excluded, but they predate the bible and they were significant. They were playing politics, pleasing this and that constituency, setting up others for future fights.
IMO its very strange that more of the New Testament is Paul than Jesus. Paul the Jewish tax collector... For Rome... F it, that dude was a spy, an agent of the state. I don't buy his conversion story one bit... So... Bite me.
Did you hear Jesus say that with your own ears? If you don't trust Paul then how can anything from the new testament be reliable?
That's a good question, and its why I've been studying the gnostics and their texts for a few years now. Still a newb, though.
I think the gnostic texts go a long way to verifying the fact that a "Jesus event" occurred. Something profound happened and mind-fucked a lot of people all at once.
The part of the NT that I know is reliable is the Gospels. Jesus often speaks symbolically, but he is always logical. There's sense in what he says.
That may not seem like much, but this is a very barbaric world, and the barbarism comes from people being delusional. For example, something like half of all indigenous tribes in the New World were in some way cannibalistic. In one pyramid in Mexico city, there was a wall made of over 30k human skulls, and priests sacrificed and ate their hearts because they believed the gods required it or they would destroy the world. This is not an exaggeration. Contrast that with Jesus' words, "the truth will set you free," and "love your neighbor as yourself." My point is, its easy to be a modern person and think people are rational because of the world that Christianity made. Not perfectly... There were still power games and atrocities... But this rational and mostly safe world is the direct product of Christian thinking, which demanded that people be grounded in reality or at least trying to be. Because the truth will set you free. Illusion is enslavement in itself, and leads to horrible outcomes, like human sacrifice or the brutal Roman empire or modern fiat enslavement.
And that's also the source of my frustration with modern Christianity. Its falling back into illusion. They refuse to be reasoned with. They spin their wheels trying to justify one part of the Bible that they don't understand with another part that they don't understand, and get angry when you have simple and non-hateful explanations that are well supported by the bible but which they didn't hear from their church, so they won't even be nice, much less think about it. Enslaved by illusion. Not following Jesus.
All you gotta do is think. It all fits together, it all makes sense. And if an explanation doesn't make sense, **_then its wrong._** And I know Jesus agrees because he said as much, several times.
"But this rational and mostly safe world is the direct product of Christian thinking, which demanded that people be grounded in reality or at least trying to be."
This is simply not true. Before the rise of Christianity, the Romans believed in a round earth. That changed after Christianity when the world literally took a step back. That's why it was called the dark ages. It wasn't until the invention of the printing press that people started to interpret the bible for themselves. This led to a revolt against the church. Eventually, people just dropped christianity into a mindless ritualistic belief system. They believe in it very loosely.
What doesn't make sense to me is why god would reveal himself to a handful of jews in the desert and no one else. The world is a massive place and only this small tiny group of the world's population received the truth. How does that make sense? How is that fair? Even if the bible could somehow be taken to a different part of the world, people of other cultures couldn't even translate it. Plus most people were illiterate which opens up the gatekeeping culture. That gatekeeper culture has lasted for so long (thousands of years) that people still think they are not qualified to interpret the bible. Why would god reveal holy scripture that average people can't interpret?
Also these stories from the bible like Noah's ark and all the animals he gathered up for a 40+ day global flood doesn't make sense either. Religion is simply not logical. It is about faith.
You're right, all of it. Aaaand wrong in your conclusion.
Don't blame Christianity for what the Catholics did. And to be fair to the Catholics, don't blame them for what the Calvinists did. Etc. Christianity is following Christ, not a specific group of people doing.
But if this world isn't the product of Christian thinking, then explain... History. I didn't say its perfect or that Christians are perfect. Only that their actions made this world.
Did you know that the greatest scientists and mathematicians were mostly Christians who did their science in pursuit of God? Yeah, sure, there were some non Christian great thinkers, and the modern version of their culture emphasizes them, but all of them added together don't even come close to the Christian scientists. Why? Because for most of the last 2000 years, knowing God meant having a clear understanding of the world, and getting closer to God meant learning stuff. Only recently have Christians been infiltrated and subverted and the modern disdain for high education has been inculcated among them. They're being destroyed and their history is being stolen, and I know who's doing it but I won't say it.
I must correct your correction - sorry. The Romans may have believed in a round earth, but that was a Greek discovery, and the Greeks also gave us the epitome of their philosophy in the form of Christianity. The Romans also bleached their togas in human urine, before debasing their currency to pay for their palatial estates in a culture of corruption until the empire fell to pieces while going insane from lead poisoning.
Teaching people to read is gatekeeping? A lot of missionary work before modern schools was just teaching people to read.
Yes, Noah's ark doesn't make sense. Obviously its either allegorical or some hugely important pieces of the story are missing. Yes, that's religion for ya, gotta just accept it and turn off your brain. I'm against religion, and I think I've made that clear here. That's not the same as being against God or Christianity or any other religion - learn what you can from any of them, but never never never turn off your brain.
You're making large conclusions based on correlations that I don't even know are completely true. Majority of scientists and researchers today are not religious.
Also, I never said I was against god. My initial post asked why god gives a fuck if you worship him or something else.
And my answer was that I don't think he gives a fuck.
Research whatever I say. I don't want you to believe me. If I say something that inspires you to research it, then that's enough for me.
Have you noticed that science has dramatically slowed down in the last 50 years? And that 200 years ago there was an explosion of new inventions, and that we've lost whatever mojo we used to have? Meanwhile, maybe its just a coincidence, but Christianity has fallen deeply into illusion. Its connected.
Too much moving the goalposts but I appreciate your time. Let's agree to disagree.
Where did I move goal posts?
You keep bringing up science and all these other things that have nothing to do with my initial post. I'm trying to find out why god would want to be worshipped not to be convinced of god's existence or that christianity is the reason for human flourishing.
You keep asking questions. I'm just answering them.
If you're going to credit christianity for the good things christians did then you also have to blame christianity for the evil things that they've done. And a lot of evil has been done in the name of religion. But if I bring up evil things that christians do, you'll say that those people are just evil and are not following christianity correctly. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
I like Nietzche’s take on Jesus:
Nietzsche admired Jesus as a radical, life-affirming figure—but condemned how Christianity distorted his message. He saw Jesus as a noble spirit corrupted by his followers, especially Paul.
Jesus as a moral genius: Nietzsche believed the historical Jesus embodied a profound inner peace and love that transcended resentment. He saw Jesus not as a dogmatic preacher but as someone who lived his truth through example, not doctrine.
A symbol of love and non-retaliation: In The Antichrist, Nietzsche wrote that Jesus taught people to “love your enemies” not out of weakness, but as a radical affirmation of life. He admired this ethic as deeply personal and transformative
Jesus rejected institutional power: Nietzsche saw Jesus as someone who opposed religious authority and legalism. He believed Jesus lived in defiance of rigid moral codes, embracing a spontaneous and joyful existence.
Paul as the corrupter: Nietzsche argued that Paul distorted Jesus’s message by introducing guilt, sin, and the concept of eternal punishment. He claimed Paul turned Jesus’s life into a religion of resentment and control
Christianity as anti-life: While Jesus affirmed life, Nietzsche believed Christianity betrayed him by promoting suffering, asceticism, and denial of the body. He called Christianity “the greatest misfortune of humanity” in The Antichrist
Jesus vs. the Church: Nietzsche drew a sharp line between Jesus and the Church. He saw the Church as a political institution that weaponized Jesus’s teachings to manipulate and dominate.