Why would a god want you to worship him? And how does that make you a good person that is worthy of entering heaven?
Discussion
Mahdood ready to do battle today đ
Bro I was thinking about this yesterday and I canât think of any moral argument for worship. It doesnât do anything for god. It doesnât make god stronger or anything. And if god doesnât get anything out of it, why does he want people to do it? And if itâs such a good act, why is worshipping something else considered a sin? If someone worshipped satoshi, that would be considered sinful. How can act be considered be evil just based on who that act is directed toward?
I've thought a lot about this. Satan eants you to worship him too. For the same reason, I believe. It's just like in BC when you would sacrifice animals or crops to attone for your sins, and like Christ sacrificing himself for our sins. I think it's about energy. If you do something negative selfishly, you have to do something positive selflessly. God draws energy from your worship. Demons (that is fallen angels, read Enoch) draw energy from the same thing. Moloch and all the other watchers draw spiritual energy from our sins, especially when they're done in their name. In return, that's why "Satanists", the occult, do sacrifices to dark spirits. They give in the physical to receive in the spiritual. I can't explain further because I'm a physical being who can't possibly fully understand the spiritual realm.
If god wants us to worship him so he can have more energy, then isnât god selfish? And if he wants energy, then that means he is lacking in energy. Because one only wants what he lacks. But if he doesnât need energy, then that means god wants energy in excess. That is greedy. Either way, this argument paints god as either selfish or greedy. Possibly both.
For one, I think we should step back. You say selfish like it's a cuss word. There's a difference between doing something selfish that hurts others and doing something selfish that only improves your situation. Life is painful and God made life. From what sense I can make, God only even made anything because what else would you do? If I can make a universe, bro I am making a universe. So yeah, you could call God selfish. But he also allegedly wrote a book, and sent angels to help us live happy healthy lives. Like the verses about don't eat animals who chew the cud of the field in Leviticus. Maybe we should only eat Kosher pork because of some spiritual woo woo. Or maybe he was saying "he don't eat that shit. Pigs eat anything and they're likely to have worms." What sounds like comandment because it's written in the language of the bible, is probably actually just wisdom of best practice. Now the energy thing. Let's say God is all powerful. No matter how much spiritual energy we give Him, it can't change Him. And I buy that, so I was saying that incorrectly earlier, I believe. So you're right. Still don't wanna give energy to evil spirits. Maybe He can't get any bigger but they can? Again, Im a physical being so who the fuck knows. But also, is it selfish to tell the beings you made to make good choices? i believe something evil is working through the IMF, Davos, world governments. Not metaphorically. Actual evil. And if I'm right, wouldn't it make sense that God, looking out for his creation's best interest, would want to say something like "hey those are evil spirits who will eventually hurt you or others. Don't worship them. They're gonna fuck you over in the end." But again, biblical language. So instead it's "thou shalt have no other gods before me"
The idea that if you can do anything then youâd do what god did and create the universe is a fallacy. It defies logic. A truly perfect entity is perfect in every sense. A perfect being is perfectly content. Perfectly satiated. Perfectly knowledgeable. The reason you would create the universe is because youâre interested in seeing the outcome. But youâre only interested because you have imperfect knowledge. If you had perfect knowledge, creating the universe is a pointless act. God would already know all the outcomes. A perfect entity has no reason to act. This is one of the main premises of Human Action by Mises. Humans are not perfect. We are deficient and vulnerable. We have a sense of uneasiness with life. We feel hunger, pain, fear, boredom, and loneliness. These sensations push us to act. God doesnât experience these sensations. Therefore, a perfect entity would never have a reason to take any action. So it is illogical to say that god would want to create any of this. Itâs pointless. It provides no entertainment because god is already sufficiently entertained. It provides no meaning to his life because he is above meaning. It provides no sense of goodness to himself because he is perfectly good. It makes no sense that heâd do anything. And people contradict this sense of perfection about god when they say things like god doesnât like when people do evil. This implies that god gets upset with human actions. A perfect being can objectively look at things as they are without any negative consequences. So if god is real, Iâd say that it makes more sense that he doesnât do anything. Which is why I donât understand why people would worship. It doesnât do anything for god.
If god wanted to look out for us, he could just get rid of the IMF and WEF or whatever. I certainly think plenty of prayers have already been made regarding that issue. God also looks by without doing anything about people dying and starving all over the world. If god is real, it makes more sense that he wouldnât intervene. He has no motivation or reason to act.
See i disagree with the perfectly satiated part. That seems like youâre assuming the meaning of perfect. Just because you are without fault doesnât mean you donât want things. A person could theoretically live a perfectly moral life, but still wish they could have a boat. I believe by âperfectâ if the Word even says that, and it probably does, it would mean it in the sense that God didnât destroy anything to create, that He doesnât do evil in order to do good, back to the energy thing. It could mean, though lost in the translation of middle eastern jews from thousands of years ago, that God is the only thing that can create without destroying, where we have to chop down trees to build a house. And even if thatâs wrong, one can be satiated but still curious. I can be full on dinner but still be curious what the dessert tastes like. Free will would be the key factor there which would explain why God wanted us to have it. This is a big part of why Bitcoin pushed me to want to know more about God. God wants free will, the devil wants control. Trees look like lungs and trees feed our lungs. Mycelium feed our brain cells and they look like braincells. Itâs the mirror image that seems so recurring in nature that intuitively leads me to believe that there is truth in God. And that doesnât even necessarily demand that I find God through a religion, because belief and religion are also two different subjects. And I kind of get what you mean, that creating everything would be pointless if you know how itâs going to end. Maybe. I know how a rollercoaster feels, but I still wanna ride it. In reality, none of this would be necessary to God. Iâll finish that point in a second though. How do you know what God experiences? You could only read about his experience in flawed books written by flawed men. That doesnât mean you know what it feels like to be able to speak things into existence. I donât think God gets upset, tho I donât know. I think itâs more like âWelp, another one wonât make the cut. Oh well.â I donât think worship is necessarily for God. Even if it does do something for Him, humans still get more out of it than He does. But even without the need to worship, I still find it easier to be appreciative to God than to just feel appreciative. Attitude of grattitude got me out of the darkest moments of my life. Undoubtedly. Then I directed that energy to God because I believe that to receive you must give. Itâs metaphysical to me. I think thatâs the law of attraction, magnetism, however you want to perceive that. So in a sense I guess that is a form of worship. But to your point about âYou donât thank your parents every day for having you.â No I do not, but I am grateful that they did all the time. I just donât bother to text them about it because that takes a lot of time. Thanking God in my heart and mind is literally just a thought. The parallels between God and my parents only go so far because you obviously canât equate humans to God.
About the none of this is necessary, I actually think thereâs something beyond all of this. The Book says God created everything, but Iâm actually inclined to think itâs the other way around. God didnât create nature, nature created God. For one, try to imagine no space, no planets, no stars or gravity or lack thereof. Absolute nothingness. I donât think thatâs possible. I think reality is absolutely inevitable. Nothingness canât exist. Donât ask me why that would be the case but it just sounds right to me. Now quantum physics leads to the fact that entanglement can happen regardless of the space between the entangled particles. Lightyears apart, theoretically at least, what happens to one happens to the other even in wildly different circumstances. They also talk about how information can travel, can be carried by atoms. Seems to me like God would be the conscious part of that equation, that God is the culmination of all molecules and interactions that somehow manifested into a higher consciousness, almost like how transistors and resistors and cables canât do anything apart from one another, but put em all together and suddenly you can get on the internet. I like to the God is the culmination of all reality in one spirit, one metaphysical being or consciousness. Does that mean that Christ wasnât really the son of God? Nope. Still couldâve been the will of God. Does that mean that Allah couldnât have had some legitimate tie to the ultimate? Nope. Iâve met people who have that connection to something higher, who could do things that the physical world canât explain. Doesnât negate that it exists, just that the story about it is flawed, which we have already agreed, it is.
If nature created god, then why isnât nature considered to be god? That would make more sense. I know some people that believe that but religion calls it blasphemy.
God being consciousness is plausible but again, why this specific god from the Bible and not a different god? And why is worship good simply because it derives benefits equivalent to meditation? Other religions have followers that feel good and derive benefits from their forms of worship. Every religious person Iâve ever met swears that worship gives them peace and joy even though they oddly always say that they should do it more but consistently fail to do so. How can worshiping be so beneficial when most people are going to be worshipping the wrong god? Since every religion claims only one religion is correct and that the other gods are false. That means most people are worshipping the wrong god. And if theyâre worshipping the wrong god, but still deriving benefits, then it means that god is arbitrary. It means whoever god is, doesnât actually matter. You can worship god or worship the state or worship celebrities. The act of worship is clearly more important than the entity being worshiped.
In my opinion, for whatever reason, humans evolved to be obedient sheep. They are followers. They find peace and comfort in outsourcing their thinking. This is consistent with what we see from humans at a large scale. They donât verify anything. They believe in things without being able to articulate why. Ask someone why they get vaccinated. Theyâll tell you they believe in science. But thatâs not how science works lmao. Ask someone why they continue to vote. Theyâll tell you itâs because they want to preserve their freedom. More illogical contradictions. The act of voting is a surrender of your freedom. But people feel good after they vote. They feel they are more free because they participated in democracy. But that is proof that just because you feel good, doesnât mean youâve improved your life in any way. Like eating fiat food full of high fructose corn syrup.
But the worst thing about worship is that it rewards inaction. Instead of fighting for freedom, people close their eyes and imagine freedom being handed to them. Instead of ending the fed, they pray for a better economy. Instead of ending wars, they pray for peace. You are dealt a a shitty hand of cards and told to wait for your reward in the after life which no one can prove even exists. Itâs the biggest scam.
Those are my two sats. I think weâve gone around in circles plenty so letâs just agree to disagree here đ€
Because the last church of nature got the boot from Jackson and put on reserves. And i don't know every verse, but i know Revelation 11:18 says "The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth."
The earth is as much a temple to the bible as your body is. You sound like you blame God and religion for what people do. The fact that Christian morallity and logical mortality are basically the same is one reason, another is the repeating consistencies with history. Another is evidence, including but not limited to the Shroud of Turin.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/2pZJuZe2qJJaqKSufA8EhI
The meditation question, it literally says your body is a temple. Why wouldn't both be a way to tap in? To worship, because most of worship is directed gratitude which feels good no matter where you direct it.
There's lots of wrong things that make you feel good. Heroine feels amazing. Long term? Not so much. Also, again, gratitude which again, gives chemical release.
There's also a distinction you should consider that religion the practice gives meaning and religion the institution is a business so obviously it's going to be corrupted and resistant to change. Every tried to get somebody to use a new kind of money? đ
Good hash, my guy. I hope i made the slightest thing seem more sensible đ€
I think the best forms of religion encourage the golden rule and seeking divine guidance within oneself. From those two edicts, it is necessary to act where we have control. "Faith without works is dead."
It is true many people use it as an excuse to do nothing, but I don't think that's the core of most quality spiritual practices.
Nice thinky thoughts tho, Hdo, quality pondering. Have some sats đ„
I am more fond of the silver rule personally. I think the golden rule is retarded lol
What is the silver rule
Don't do to others what you don't want others to do to you. For example, if you don't want to be robbed then don't rob others.
This is more practical than the golden rule. Treating others the way you want to be treated is impractical and most people don't actually follow through. For example, I would like others to give me free money but I don't want to give others free money. The golden rule kind of sucks.
Also, just keep in mind the King James Version of the bible was a rewritten bible to allow King James to not be seen as a heretic by his people when he divorced his wife. I literally find it impossible that that's the only time the Word has been manipulated or changed.
So if there is no way to know for certain that the Bible hasnât been corrupted/altered, how do you confidently know that youâre worshiping the correct religion?
Because I think God is a name for the energy that makes existence exist. It's just wildly misinterpreted because of Paul and Peter and all the other writers of the book who took liberties in doing so. I think Paul for instance was way more of a hardass than the big G God actually is. If your worshipping a six armed dancing indian lady, I have my doubts. If you're listening to your heart, your spirit and reading the signs of your life while you make decisions based on the good of yourself and those around you, you're moving in the right direction. And that comes with a feeling in my experience. I believe that feeling comes from God, along with chemical interactions, such type as the serotonin you get when you do something good for someone. Yes, that's biochemical. But if God made everything, then clearly, He's also a bit of a chemist himself.
I think that goodness you feel is just based on who you are and the social values youâve adopted. These things are based on your genetics and life experiences. It doesnât mean itâs from god. Thereâs a great book called the expectation effect and it proves how much your brain will distort and filter reality to show you the answers you want to see. This explains why everyone believe their religion is right and all others are wrong. It explains why people of all religions have unexplainable experiences with what they claim to be god.
Also this point brings up another important question. Why donât all people have this good feeling when they help others? Psychopaths are incapable of empathizing with others. They feel nothing when they watch others in pain and agony. Why would god create people that way? They are incapable of being good. Theyâve been set up to fail and their destiny is eternal hell. But god made that person that way. Why? Isnât that cruel?
Itâs like breeding an abomination of an animal. Imagine taking the two sickest dogs with the worst genetic defects you can find and mating them together. Then the puppy is born and has no chance at living a normal healthy life so you punish it by killing it. If you called that an experiment, youâd be considered cruel. But if god does it, itâs somehow divine wisdom because my brain is too small to comprehend god?
Well yeah and narcissists, same story. The question is did God create those people or did their circumstances? Iâm given to believe narcissism is an adaptation, the kind youâd develop if you were say one of the guards on the trail of tears. Or in a war, or any of the other zillion fucked up scenarios human beings have been in. Again, I see God as an energy more than a deity. Seems more to me like God created the conditions for humanity, for life to exist and develop and develop it did. It just went in every direction. Jesus has a parable akin to this. He talks about some seed will fall on stone and wither in the sun and blow away. Some will fall on infertile soil and sprout, but soon dry up because it never had roots deep enough to grow fully. Then other seed will fall on fertile soil and multiply hundreds of times over. You might be that seed that falls on stone. Maybe you have nothing but degens and derelicts around you. But in reality you have two feet and a heartbeat. You have the freedom to go where you find good influences. You are capable of making decisions for yourself that your influences wouldnât. You can make decisions guided by your own intent to be better for yourself and others. Will you? Or will you swallow that feeling that the people around you are peices of shit and just do what they do? I think God has compassion for those who recognize that something is wrong and do something about it. For people who give in to lust and greed and adultery and all the things that donât do anything truly good for anyone? Less so. I might go to hell for killing someone who didnât do anything to me besides a slight of disrespect. That would be a huge moral leep for me because I wasnât brought up in a world like that. I would have to make the conscious decision to make that moral leep. For someone whose dad is in the pen for life and all his friends are thugs? Maybe God has more empathy for that person in a similar scenario. Or maybe if you kill somebody, God finds a way to kill you back and you get the extra crispy treatment. I wonât know until I get there. But Iâm willing to bet my soul that the next life exists and that itâs a better chance of it being a good experience if I put effort into being decent while Iâm on this earth.
So god sets some people up for success and others for failure. Is that justice? Is that fair?
Seems like you believe more in god than religion. I have no issues with that. My issue is with religion which is clearly manmade.
Religious Bitcoinerâs đ
I mean if you wanna die to verify, then come back and tweet the deets, you have my full support.
Is that the only way to verify?
#asknostr
If weâre talking about what happens when you die, probably.
You canât extrapolate from other statements of the source, find contradictions and disproof the source based on reason?
Try it out, then bet your soul on it.
Too many contradictions, I donât have to bet a thing.
The bible is fiat đŹ
The idea of a god comes from humans so those same humans have to carry the burden of proof. Religious people like to twist that around and ask you to prove where the world came from. But they can't prove where god came from. And lack of proof for the origin of the universe does not mean I have to believe in your god.
Hahahahahahahahaha
sustainED spirtual value/naturalpATH*****
nostr:npub1m2u4v2jtz4np0y3lk2anr4vm4vr4l7jlr7y94qglhfrgewsczchqg6y2glProphet Rand is the only one Iâll accept revelations from
#loveIZbase & i luvya nostr:npub1ghcetnluhryhynhuyj8s2pazldjm27wl40nu6dfeskvpv09twcnsneygat t *Y* buttbut i am Just a relay my *B*rO đ
The stories are a roadmap,and the map is not the territory.
That said, some maps get your where you want to go, and others don't.
Ye shall know them by their fruits.
That's why Cosmotheism is different from neatly all other religions. While not rejecting intuition or the race-soul, it embraces science as the best means of ascertaining reality.
Science is a misleading term.
Many experts assert that anthropogenic climate change is settled science. Similar claims are made about the Big Bang and thousands of anthropological ideas. None are factual or even have any merit. Much of whatâs called âscienceâ follows these patterns.
I donât need a narrative or label to find and internalize credible evidence and accept the massive level of existential ambiguity I will always face as a human being.
I'd say that science is a misused term these days. (I don't think the CO2 and vaccine cultists are honest, and honesty is an essential ingredient of science.) But, used honestly and properly, it's not misleading. The scientific method is a well-tested way of gaining a more realistic view of reality. For example, one can make a test to determine whether moving air at a given speed exerts less pressure on a surface than slower-moving or stationary air. A further experiment will show whether or not an object's curved side experiences a greater air speed compared to its flat side when moving through air. Before you know it, you've got a wing that can lift a 20-ton aircraft a mile high. Neither faith nor common sense, good though they may be, gave us that for 50,000 years.
The essential element of science is credible evidence and the ability to verify evidence or consistently repeat outcomes. Thatâs all. And thatâs all that can be counted on.
Well said. Sure science has been somewhat corrupted because the masses are retarded and prone to religiosity with anything. Trust the science is literally not how science works. Everything should be open to scrutiny. Any claim can and should be tested. But people are retarded and want to be sheep. And you canât question religion. Itâs a part of faith. If you question religion, youâre scared into thinking that youâll spend eternity in hell. Just for questioning. In a world full of scammers and grifters, religion teaches you to be blindly obedient. Wild. Religion is legit harmful but people constantly tell me that Iâm mean for not letting people be happy with their delusions. I canât imagine how much better off humanity would be if people started thinking for themselves and developing their own moral compass. Imagine a world where people acted toward solutions instead of praying.
People are absolutely terrified of dying and having no answer to the unknown that lies beyond being alive. So humans have made up many stories with âanswersâ as cope that make them and their kin feel better.
Of course those stories and âanswersâ were all weaponized by the sociopath humans to control populations / tax / wage war / kill / etc.
Just happy Iâve been able to see through all of it. Religion is one of the creepiest mental prisons Iâve ever seen. Antithesis of freedom and critical thought.
Iâm so glad I broke out of it
Respect dood its a very hard one to break out of.
I was raised by atheists but found their position to be as weird and as extreme as religious people.
What is so hard about saying âI donât know.â?
Youâre not wrong
Perhaps god only comes into being toward the end of universes, after life has sufficiently evolved.
âGodâ is absolutely energy.
Can energy create itself?
Wouldnât surprise me if base reality is far stranger than we can possibly imagine and literally incomprehensible to the human mind.
There is so much information we canât perceive. Iâd be amazed if humans could measure even 50% of total information available.
đ€Ł
Mahdood getting ready to face the triggered religious zealots on nostr this afternoon đđ
đżđżđż
Itâs the most common thing that people on nostr donât seem to question. I follow some religious zealots who actually believe that their religion is pro anarchy and anti statism. Religion is literally a form of government. Taxes, rules, and mass wars are features of religion that they overlook because theyâve grown up in a secular society. Itâs just an outdated form of government that was replaced by democracy.
đ
So true lol
This is why is crucial to have enough brownie points to be born into the correct one from start đž
My religion is right because I was born in x region where that religion is predominant and everyone else is wrong because of course theyâd be wrong. Theyâre misinformed and I am not.
There's no need to believe when you know. Iykyk.
Yea yea I know I feel it in my balls or whatever đ
Tingle yadayada
Tingle is for gays like nostr:npub1ng8zqsa04gzk5y4ch0nh43xrrpwqu27ydvf24s2cdzg5gv3upc7qycqjc0
Fwiw, nothing wrong with being gay. But there is something wrong with being mcd.
https://video.nostr.build/10950bee6ff040a0a9af66145e96ebd6b833a26f81a1653ecdcc387a6fb92ba2.mp4
I knew youâd turn LGBTQ. Knew it. Your hatred of my alpha drove you to the dark side (literally).
Worship
The act of showing reverence, adoration, or deep respect toward a deity, higher power, or something regarded as sacred. It can also mean giving great honor or devotion to a person, idea, or object.
Makes sense to me as to why.
To transcend oneself, one must be willing to devote themselves to something greater than them.
So is worshipping bitcoin considered good and moral? Since it is greater than us.
Technology can enhance life, but it canât define what makes life worth living.
Technology is meant to be a tool, not a source of value itself.
I think those who worship Bitcoin have either replaced God with a man-made construct, similar to those who worship the state, or theyâre worshipping the ideals that Bitcoin embodies and incentivizes.
Religions are all man made constructs as well.
There certainly is no evidence that they were made by anything else but humans. This doesnât necessarily mean that god doesnât exist. I just donât believe that god is what religion tells us it is.
But why is worshipping bitcoin bad?
Why is showing reverence, adoration, or deep respect toward bitcoin bad?
And why would devoting yourself to bitcoin be bad? Bitcoin is greater than all of us after all. If worshipping god is good, then why wouldnât worshipping other lesser, but still good, things like bitcoin be considered evil?
My thoughts are that God can only exist if we believe in Him, and we only exist because of God.
If we were to stop worshipping God and turn our devotion toward something else, God would cease to be and, in turn, so would we.
That is why worshipping something other than God is not good.
If god ceases to exist when we stop worshipping him, then is god really worthy of worship?
That question kinda assumes that divine worth = self-sufficiency and power.
Maybe devine worth = relationality and love
If that was the case, shouldnât I worship rational humans that love me?
And now we loop back to:
But people worship each other and then stop all the time. Celebrities and politicians are heroes until theyâre enemies. Those people existed before and after the worship.
Yeah, people like that have been around for a long time.
But they donât cease to exist after the worship stops is my point
Okay? đ€
You argued that we need to worship god or he ceases to exist. But this rule doesnât apply to other beings.
That's what I think, sure. But why should it apply to other beings?
It doesnât but if these rules are universal then they should apply to everyone
I do think that if humanity stops believing in itself, it will die.
I don't accept your false premise of worship.
Have no other God's before Him. (that's not worship, just saying don't follow others because they will mislead you)
Obey His commandments of your
own free will because that will bring you a better happier life. (that's not worship, but good advice)
He gives you individual agency to do what you want, but He really wants the best for you so he gives you gospel doctrine and commandments to help guide you on the best path.
What is my premise of worship that you reject?
How do you know which god to choose? And how do you know that god you choose isnât the one misleading you?
Obedience and free will seem like diametrically opposing acts. How can one be obedient and retain free will at the same time? Obedience is the act of giving up your own free will and doing what you are told without question or doubt.
How is worshipping god what is best for me?
Christ said those who love this life will not see the kingdom of heaven. So loving God isn't out of gratefulness for this life, it must be for being grateful for going to heaven. But loving God so you don't go to hell doesn't make you good. That's a selfish love. V confused.
Isnât loving god for heaven also selfish?
Hence my confusion. i definitely think it's more about loving your neighbor than anything. Christ said that himself. The main points are love thy God and love thy neighbor as thyself.
I just donât know why worship is necessary. Letâs imagine two extreme cases.
One person is a Christian. He devotes his life to the church. Attends every Sunday mass. Never lies. Never cheats. Never steals.
The other person is not a Christian but he is a good person. Never lies. Never cheats. Never steals. Feeds the homeless. Helps the community. Does everything that the perfect Christian would do. The only thing is that he is not Christian. He doesnât pray to the same god that the Christian does.
Why is the second person evil and worthy of going to hell for eternity? Why is worshipping god such a big deal?
I've argued exactly this point to my pentacostal family. I don't think that's what happens. I think God judges you based on your heart and your actions and the rest there is no exact formula for. It's case by case. That's a resounding point for Christian public figures like Charlie Kirk. Nothing about Christianity is collective. Each is judged according to his own behavior.
But even goodness is subjective. What is good and evil? Killing is evil which I agree with. But Iâm not going to stop eating meat. A lot of animals are killed to sustain our nutritional needs.
What is considered good today may have been considered evil in the past. And what is considered evil today could be considered good in the future. Slavery was not considered evil before but it is considered evil today. Why doesnât religion ban slavery? Because religion doesnât view slavery as evil. But whatâs more evil than slavery? And if you are against slavery, then that means you believe your morality is superior to that of religion.
Killing is evil sure. But what if the guy you kill was about to run off with some child in a sketchy looking van? You arenât evil because you killed. Again, itâs subjective. What was the motive of the murder? What is your intent? Oh he was actually the kidâs dad and they have to get to the hospital to see his mom. Does that make you evil? No, you thought you were saving the child from a life of trauma and God only knows what. God knows that difference, I believe. Spiritually and emotionally, your heart was in a good place. And there were people back in the day who thought it was evil just like there are people today who donât have a problem with it. None of this is absolute. Now youâre getting into the philosophy that I canât think for God, I can only tell my own interpretation. Religion is captured by the people who are the âauthoritiesâ of it. Because they want MOONNNEYEYYYY. You think God stopped all the same works He did in the bible just because itâs the future? Hell no. We just donât write it down as much anymore. And if you did youâd just end up in the same boat as Joseph Smith. Youâd have a cult following (small c, as in not evil, just a small dedicated group of followers) but you wouldnât upend modern christianity, despite how much it needs it. I think a lot of this is getting off on a tangent to your initial point tho. Do you think slavery is evil? Donât have slaves. Oh you had slaves and now youâre in heaven. God, Iâm guessing, would probably be like âThatâs fucked up bro. Iâm gonna count that one as a sin. Next slide.â I could think of several things more evil than slavery. A lot of them probably happened on a plane called the Lolita Express. Letâs calm down with the assumptions tho. lol. You can think slavery is bad and still think religion is a good moral compass. I think youâre hung up on the idea that if you believe in God, you have to believe EVERY SINGLE WORD in the bible. Mabye thatâs not the case, maybe Iâm going to hell. Time will tell. Tho I have doubts about hell too.
When it comes to religion and truth, itâs either all true and correct or itâs all nonsense. For example, religions claim to be the ultimate truth and the only path to salvation. All religions claim this. So when a claim is made that requires you to believe in it completely, then it should be scrutinized at every level. Since all religions fail under this level of scrutiny, the religion is flawed. And if all religions are flawed, then there is no way to distinguish between any of them being better than another.
I donât buy that for a second. For one, satanism is not about being a path to salvation. Itâs about living while youâre alive because there is nothing after. But Christianity and satanism espouse something like the golden rule. Wildly different institutions yet both espouse respect and responsibility. I like christianity and feel that it is more correct because I agree with the premise that there is something beyond this world and beyond the skin, that God would want to participate in his creation (Christ) and because I see the merits in self control of all kinds. But satanism espouses correcting oneâs mistakes and employing logic. Doesnât mean Iâm satanic. Also, religion and truth are not the same thing. Religion is manâs attempt to live a meaningful life. It can give him meaning and direction when he has none, even if ultimately, it ends up being the âwrong religionâ. Truth exists beyond all of that. Religion is a completely subjective experience. Truth exists whether you experience it, whether you employ it, whether you find it, respect it, or believe it or not. Religion is the attempt at knowing truth. Truth is objective fact. Not the same, and only one, in my view, is absolute.
Religion is manâs attempt to outsource meaning and morals. You can determine your own morals and meaning for yourself. Historically, most people choose religions to do that for them. Iâm using the word choose loosely because most people donât choose religion. Theyâre born into it and brainwashed as children.
But the ultimate problem in this discussion is that you have to choose the right religion. If you pick the wrong religion, you go to hell. Thatâs the problem. Thatâs why it doesnât make sense. Thatâs why I asked about worship. Does it really fucking matter if the person was good but worshipped the wrong god? Or didnât worship at all. A person who has done more good in this world than a Christian will end up in hell simply because he worshipped Buddha or shiva. How is that right?
It is that also, yes. Nothing is absolute across all people. You go to hell, or you just die and thereâs nothing after, or you die and come back as a squirrel, or you die and feed a tree and become part of the collective consciousness. I donât think it is right. I wouldnât be surprised at all if Christ only actually said love thy neighbors as thyself and the pharisees who wrote that were like âWeâre gonna make SOOOOO much money if loving God is even more important than that, and tithing is part of the ritual.â
âOh shit yeah! Write that down!"
This is a good point that raises another important question. Why would god give us something that is so easily corruptible like religion? And then heâs just like yeah figure it out yourselves or go to hell. Makes no sense.
All the other shit I take with a pinch of salt, including the worship. I don't think you're mandated to m thank God when things go right necessarily but it makes sense that if God made us, is our father, He wants to be part of our lives. If I build an aquarium, I want to interact with the fish. God made a fuggin universe. So yeah, it makes sense to me that he'd want to play some part in it.
Do you thank your parents every day for bringing you into this world? Do you thank them every time something good happens to you simply because they raised you as a child? Do you show complete and total obedience toward them no matter what they ask of you? Do you throw away your life plans and dreams to do what they want? The answer to all these questions is no. Just because our parents brought us into this world and raised us, does not mean we owe them anything. We did not ask to be born. We did not ask to be raised by them. They did it of their own free will.
In fact, Iâd argue that raising a child simply to have them appreciate and show gratitude toward you for the rest of their lives is evil.
Your parents had a child and raised you because thatâs what they wanted to do. Just like god supposedly created us because he wanted to. If someone does what they want to do, and it somehow affects your life, that doesnât mean you magically owe them anything. This line of thinking is reminiscent of those statists that argue if you donât like paying taxes then you should just leave. Itâs a weak argument.
My parents don't have infinite wisdom and omnipotence. I'm not disagreeing with you, again, the worship part seems real weird to me too. (Tho I get your making sense of it too) If anything, it does look like both God and our parents made most of selfishly, or on accident. For all we actually know, life on earth is what happens when you don't put the universe in a cool dry place. And yeah, that would have a tinge of evil. You wrote that like I said you're wrong. What I was saying is that just because the book says worship Him does not mean that's actually what he wants. I'll point out, Christ said you should HAVE no other gods before God. He did not say worship him with your every bone. At least not in that verse. I don't remember every word.
Nietzche pointed out the other end of the spectrum of worship: you worship something internal. It can be a self growth. A discovery. A metamorphosis.
The traditional form of worshiping something external is a self emptying and making room for something else. âGodâ or nature or the universe. This is sorta the mode we have to be in to âlearnâ something from someone/something else.
âThere is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship.â -David Foster Wallace
Damn I havenât seen you on nostr in a long time lol still doing the 1 sat zaps huh đ
Itâs been awhile đ had to do some âinternal searchingâ back there.
How did the search go?
lol good question. Lost as ever and barely holding it together.
I did find Georges Bataille and his ideas on âexcess energyâ, âself destructionâ, and the âaccursed shareâ. It probably explains Jesus and his âhuman sacrificeâ and bitcoinâs âenergy sacrificeâ. He suggests the waste is necessary.
If waste is necessary, then itâs not wasteful. When electricity is transferred from the grid to the hospital that is providing life support to someone , some energy will get wasted. But if it saves a life, then it wasnât a waste.
Understood. Agreed. His hypothetical was like âif we only consume what we need then there would be no war (because we produce more than we need). But since there is war, then there is something interesting and universal about this act of self destructionâŠâ itâs a pretty subtle thought.
This is definitely beyond my pay grade but if matter cannot be created nor destroyed, then how can anything ever be wasteful? đ€·ââïž
Wasted electricity just goes back into the universe as energy for something else right?
Youâre speaking in terms of physics, heâs probably speaking in terms of society. I mean⊠nothing in physics explain why the hell the pyramids were built. Massive sacrifice of human lives, energy and materials.
Idk if there was a massive sacrifice of human lives
He suggests the thing behind that is also behind the reason why we go to war. We have a need to burn off the excess.
Itâs probably why youâre zapping 21 sats instead of 1 đ
1 sat zap is wasteful because youâre paying more in fees than actual value being sent.
đ I didnât know that. Do you not receive anything?
âExpenditure beyond necessity is the essence of sovereignty.â â Georges Bataille
Sovereignty, for Bataille, is not about control but about the freedom to waste, to sacrifice, to transcend utility.
So youâre saying that you have little soverignty since youâre only able to waste 1 sat per zap. Meanwhile Iâm able to waste 21x the amount that you can. Do better, become more sovereignđ«Ą
I don't think God cares about being worshipped. He cares about us, though. If worship keeps you from falling into despair, then its good. And what exactly worship is, is somewhat open to interpretation anyways.
As for entering Heaven, just pretend it doesn't exist. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. But Jesus said the kingdom of God is within you and all around you. Whether you're in heaven now depends on how you live now. God seems to want us to serve each other, and serving each other seems to make life better. I think that's how you Heaven. Make it a verb.
But the Bible describes heaven as an actual place that you will ascend to
Where?
9 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%207-11&version=ESV;KJV
That just means the sky.
Also Revelations is a tough book to understand.
Why is god revealing books that are difficult to understand when heâs made most people retarded?
Why did God reveal the steam engine?
There is no evidence that god revealed the steam engine
The engine in the evidence
Itâs not. Evidence must be clear and indisputable. Being overly vague is not a sign of spirituality even though religious people typically behind vague and unprovable arguments.
That's true. My point was, how could anything come to be without God's will? Since literally everything is divinely inspired, the claim that scripture is divinely inspired is unimpressive. Also it has to be said that before the Reformation, no one was claiming anything in the bible was divinely inspired. Islam makes that claim ; Christianity historically didn't.
Someone in the past felt inspired by Revelations. That's a good reason to ask why, but not a good reason to assign divine significance without first testing and understanding it.
Logos means logic. That's literally the word. Christianity has fallen **_very_** far from its logical roots. I urge you and all believers of every kind to drop the belief nonsense. Don't trust ; verify. Real is real, independent of belief. Belief should be reserved for **_after_** proving something logically. To say that if you believe, you're saved, is to give people the benefit if the doubt - that they're not dumb and actually test things and work through the merits of things. But people forgot the most important part! Logos! Lol.
If nothing can come to be without gods will then that would include evil. So why does a good deity will evil into the world? And how can this same entity justify judging and punishing its own evil creation?
I don't think he does judge or punish us. That's a human interpretation, which was obviously very useful to political structures in the past.
What are some examples of evil? Just people doing shitty things? Pain? Hell fire? I honestly can't think of any truly evil things that I could blame on God.
A human interpretation of the bible? It's pretty clear that a hell does exist for those that don't believe in christ as god.
Stealing, taxes, murder, war... The people who commit these cannot do that without gods will (as you stated above).
Free will exists, despite the "intellectuals" insisting it doesn't. Can you think of a way to design the universe that would allow for more choice?
If you think hell is a place with all the imagery that the Catholics invented, I'm sorry but that's just wrong. The fire and demons and Satan with cloven hoofs! How much retarded is it possible to be?
The Bible uses the term, "lake of fire," or just "fire." That was a known expression in the Levant because it was from the Egyptian religion. In fact, all of it is, even Christ. That doesn't mean its not true. Its fuckin awesome, IMO. The Egyptians believed that you went into the lake of fire to be reborn in this earth. That was a different route than when you went to Amenti and became a star in heaven, if you were free from attachment - in other words, illusion. This is verifyable. I know some judgemental Christian will read this and think whatever they think, but you can just read what they believed. Just read, man...
You didn't give me an example of evil that is God's fault. Those things were people.
Religious people love to shift the burden of proof to others. My inability to design a better universe is not proof that your religion is the truth.
I don't personally believe in a lake of fire or hell.
You said that god wills everything and that would include the evil actions of his creation.
But you still haven't given an example of evil. Pain is not evil. People are not God. Well, in a way they are, but basically they're not.
The example doesn't matter. Rape, murder, theft, taxation. You pick whichever evil you want. You said that god wills everything which means that he wills these evil acts taken by humans.
Pretty sure I said anything coming into the world must be from divine inspiration... Well, something like that.
The pattern is obvious - good things enter the world first, then the concept gets corrupted. But always good first. Look at Bitcoin - the good thing came into the world, and then came the shitcoining. Same story with everything. Find me an exception, I cant think of one.
The bad is from humans. To ask why God allows bad things is to ask both what God is and what the purpose of existence is. Ambitious enough?
If you don't think you have free will, then just test it. Do something neither you nor God would approve of. Actually please don't, but you can if you seriously think free will isn't real.
You said how could anything come to be without gods will. That means god wills everything to be including evil. You can admit that this statement is wrong and offer a different view but that is what you said and I'm not going to move on from it aha
Okay but you were asking how God could have created evil. I'm still waiting for an example of evil that is God's doing and not humans.
God created satan and adam. He knows their nature. He set up temptation for adam knowing that he would succumb and eat the fruit. Intentionally setting someone up for failure is evil. It's equivalent to giving car keys to a child and then saying it's not my fault that they got hurt trying to drive. It was their free will and lack of reasoning. That's neglect and child endangerment.
What does failure mean? What are the preconditions, and the mechanics, broadly speaking?
Failing to abide by the rule to not eat from the tree
That has a nonliteral meaning. Its as misunderstood as Revelations.
Broadly speaking. What's a goal you might fail or succeed at? What do you need to be able to succeed? What do you get by succeeding? Is success a thing if failure isn't possible?
The sky isnât a physical place that people ascend to after the tribulations begin?
IMO, it both is and isn't. Heaven is within you. Heaven is completion and fullness. Metaphorically, the sky fits. Heaven (sky) contains everything.
I wouldn't listen to anyone who thinks they can explain Revelations, not even me. On the one hand, Jesus said the events of the end times aren't for us to know, so I don't think Revelations is about the end times. On the other hand, it seems to allude to practices which have been lost - the seals are probably the seals referenced in Sethian baptism ritual, but the complete ritual is lost along with the meaning, along with the people who did them. The animals appear to be astrological. Every explanation I've heard, including a months long study session with a priest, was fairly easy to poke holes in. Nobody knows anymore. I can only say that in my opinion it's not about the end of the physical world - just your world.
If no one can explain revelations, then itâs nonsensical to believe in. Why believe in it all?
There's no reason to believe in it. The only belief that is ever asked for is belief in Christ.
What human organization put Revelations in the Bible? What were their motivations? Why have they given people the impression that you have to believe all these extra things that Jesus didn't talk about?
And who asked for the belief in Christ?
The motivations of people are usually control and power.
Actually no one did. Jesus said if you believe, you're saved, and no one approaches the father except through him, but that also leaves a lot of room for interpretation. The way he worded it doesn't make me think belief is the necessary minimum - rather, that such a minimum has been passed if you believe. When he said, except through me," that sounds like Christ the noun speaking, rather then Jesus/Yeshua the proper noun. It demands attention to the meaning of Christ.
Control and power were exactly the reasons for which books were put in the NT - moderated by a general good will and desire to adhere to the truth. But moderated only. That council of bishops was called by Constantine for the express purpose of homogenizing Christianity and making it the imperial religion. We actually still have Constantine's letters to the bishops, so you can check this. Before the nicean councils, different churches used different texts. There was no uniformity. Some texts are now called apocrypha, and were excluded, but they predate the bible and they were significant. They were playing politics, pleasing this and that constituency, setting up others for future fights.
IMO its very strange that more of the New Testament is Paul than Jesus. Paul the Jewish tax collector... For Rome... F it, that dude was a spy, an agent of the state. I don't buy his conversion story one bit... So... Bite me.
Did you hear Jesus say that with your own ears? If you don't trust Paul then how can anything from the new testament be reliable?
That's a good question, and its why I've been studying the gnostics and their texts for a few years now. Still a newb, though.
I think the gnostic texts go a long way to verifying the fact that a "Jesus event" occurred. Something profound happened and mind-fucked a lot of people all at once.
The part of the NT that I know is reliable is the Gospels. Jesus often speaks symbolically, but he is always logical. There's sense in what he says.
That may not seem like much, but this is a very barbaric world, and the barbarism comes from people being delusional. For example, something like half of all indigenous tribes in the New World were in some way cannibalistic. In one pyramid in Mexico city, there was a wall made of over 30k human skulls, and priests sacrificed and ate their hearts because they believed the gods required it or they would destroy the world. This is not an exaggeration. Contrast that with Jesus' words, "the truth will set you free," and "love your neighbor as yourself." My point is, its easy to be a modern person and think people are rational because of the world that Christianity made. Not perfectly... There were still power games and atrocities... But this rational and mostly safe world is the direct product of Christian thinking, which demanded that people be grounded in reality or at least trying to be. Because the truth will set you free. Illusion is enslavement in itself, and leads to horrible outcomes, like human sacrifice or the brutal Roman empire or modern fiat enslavement.
And that's also the source of my frustration with modern Christianity. Its falling back into illusion. They refuse to be reasoned with. They spin their wheels trying to justify one part of the Bible that they don't understand with another part that they don't understand, and get angry when you have simple and non-hateful explanations that are well supported by the bible but which they didn't hear from their church, so they won't even be nice, much less think about it. Enslaved by illusion. Not following Jesus.
All you gotta do is think. It all fits together, it all makes sense. And if an explanation doesn't make sense, **_then its wrong._** And I know Jesus agrees because he said as much, several times.
"But this rational and mostly safe world is the direct product of Christian thinking, which demanded that people be grounded in reality or at least trying to be."
This is simply not true. Before the rise of Christianity, the Romans believed in a round earth. That changed after Christianity when the world literally took a step back. That's why it was called the dark ages. It wasn't until the invention of the printing press that people started to interpret the bible for themselves. This led to a revolt against the church. Eventually, people just dropped christianity into a mindless ritualistic belief system. They believe in it very loosely.
What doesn't make sense to me is why god would reveal himself to a handful of jews in the desert and no one else. The world is a massive place and only this small tiny group of the world's population received the truth. How does that make sense? How is that fair? Even if the bible could somehow be taken to a different part of the world, people of other cultures couldn't even translate it. Plus most people were illiterate which opens up the gatekeeping culture. That gatekeeper culture has lasted for so long (thousands of years) that people still think they are not qualified to interpret the bible. Why would god reveal holy scripture that average people can't interpret?
Also these stories from the bible like Noah's ark and all the animals he gathered up for a 40+ day global flood doesn't make sense either. Religion is simply not logical. It is about faith.
You're right, all of it. Aaaand wrong in your conclusion.
Don't blame Christianity for what the Catholics did. And to be fair to the Catholics, don't blame them for what the Calvinists did. Etc. Christianity is following Christ, not a specific group of people doing.
But if this world isn't the product of Christian thinking, then explain... History. I didn't say its perfect or that Christians are perfect. Only that their actions made this world.
Did you know that the greatest scientists and mathematicians were mostly Christians who did their science in pursuit of God? Yeah, sure, there were some non Christian great thinkers, and the modern version of their culture emphasizes them, but all of them added together don't even come close to the Christian scientists. Why? Because for most of the last 2000 years, knowing God meant having a clear understanding of the world, and getting closer to God meant learning stuff. Only recently have Christians been infiltrated and subverted and the modern disdain for high education has been inculcated among them. They're being destroyed and their history is being stolen, and I know who's doing it but I won't say it.
I must correct your correction - sorry. The Romans may have believed in a round earth, but that was a Greek discovery, and the Greeks also gave us the epitome of their philosophy in the form of Christianity. The Romans also bleached their togas in human urine, before debasing their currency to pay for their palatial estates in a culture of corruption until the empire fell to pieces while going insane from lead poisoning.
Teaching people to read is gatekeeping? A lot of missionary work before modern schools was just teaching people to read.
Yes, Noah's ark doesn't make sense. Obviously its either allegorical or some hugely important pieces of the story are missing. Yes, that's religion for ya, gotta just accept it and turn off your brain. I'm against religion, and I think I've made that clear here. That's not the same as being against God or Christianity or any other religion - learn what you can from any of them, but never never never turn off your brain.
You're making large conclusions based on correlations that I don't even know are completely true. Majority of scientists and researchers today are not religious.
Also, I never said I was against god. My initial post asked why god gives a fuck if you worship him or something else.
And my answer was that I don't think he gives a fuck.
Research whatever I say. I don't want you to believe me. If I say something that inspires you to research it, then that's enough for me.
Have you noticed that science has dramatically slowed down in the last 50 years? And that 200 years ago there was an explosion of new inventions, and that we've lost whatever mojo we used to have? Meanwhile, maybe its just a coincidence, but Christianity has fallen deeply into illusion. Its connected.
Too much moving the goalposts but I appreciate your time. Let's agree to disagree.
Where did I move goal posts?
You keep bringing up science and all these other things that have nothing to do with my initial post. I'm trying to find out why god would want to be worshipped not to be convinced of god's existence or that christianity is the reason for human flourishing.
You keep asking questions. I'm just answering them.
If you're going to credit christianity for the good things christians did then you also have to blame christianity for the evil things that they've done. And a lot of evil has been done in the name of religion. But if I bring up evil things that christians do, you'll say that those people are just evil and are not following christianity correctly. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
I like Nietzcheâs take on Jesus:
Nietzsche admired Jesus as a radical, life-affirming figureâbut condemned how Christianity distorted his message. He saw Jesus as a noble spirit corrupted by his followers, especially Paul.
Jesus as a moral genius: Nietzsche believed the historical Jesus embodied a profound inner peace and love that transcended resentment. He saw Jesus not as a dogmatic preacher but as someone who lived his truth through example, not doctrine.
A symbol of love and non-retaliation: In The Antichrist, Nietzsche wrote that Jesus taught people to âlove your enemiesâ not out of weakness, but as a radical affirmation of life. He admired this ethic as deeply personal and transformative
Jesus rejected institutional power: Nietzsche saw Jesus as someone who opposed religious authority and legalism. He believed Jesus lived in defiance of rigid moral codes, embracing a spontaneous and joyful existence.
Paul as the corrupter: Nietzsche argued that Paul distorted Jesusâs message by introducing guilt, sin, and the concept of eternal punishment. He claimed Paul turned Jesusâs life into a religion of resentment and control
Christianity as anti-life: While Jesus affirmed life, Nietzsche believed Christianity betrayed him by promoting suffering, asceticism, and denial of the body. He called Christianity âthe greatest misfortune of humanityâ in The Antichrist
Jesus vs. the Church: Nietzsche drew a sharp line between Jesus and the Church. He saw the Church as a political institution that weaponized Jesusâs teachings to manipulate and dominate.
You can think of it as putting something Good at the top of your value hierarchy. If you donât you are likely to end up in a bad place
if he is the only one who has control to open the door for you to enter heaven, you could say that you have no choice but to praise him in the hope of whether he wants to open the door or not
Doesnât sound like a very noble and loving god. It sounds like a parent that wants to control their childâs life and expects their obedience for simply bringing them into this world.
I stop arguing and accept tha fact that religious people are dumb as shit.
Imagine being an amazing person creating good, getting to the ânext worldâ
An oops daisy, you didn't believe in all of this so eternal damnation
Worship is a natural response to the revelation of God's goodness, presence, and actions, and it flows from the overwhelming love that God has for me. đ
Do you worship people in response to their goodness, presence, and actions?
Of course not. People's deeds, however good, are not comparable to God's actions.
God created humans beings and , like a good Father, knows what is best for His children. If we choose to honor our Father, we will be united and protected by Him in this world and for eternity in heaven. If we choose to honor ourselves as a god, we will become lost children, separated from the one true God in this world and for eternity. We have the free will to choose because we were created with that freedom. There are real consequences to our choices.
Itâs not true freedom if there are consequences to choosing a different path
This logic is deeply flawed. There are consequences to every choice, and you are free to choose, but not every choice is a good choice. Choosing to make a bad choice doesn't mean you aren't free to choose, it means you don't recognize the difference between good and bad and respect it. "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. Whatever a man sows, that shall he also reap."
If you choose evil, you reap evil.
If you choose good, you reap good.
Since there is only one true God, if you freely choose to reject Him, and therefore center yourself upon something else, you are choosing to deceive yourself, and therefore reap according to your free choice, and God honors your choice even if he doesn't agree.
No thatâs not freedom. Thatâs like someone putting a gun to your head and saying if you donât freely choose to give me your money then youâll be subject to extreme torture. You can technically still choose to be tortured but thatâs not much of a choice. This is called coercion not free will.
You are free to choose. You are not free to impose your preferred consequence on reality.
And why is the consequence eternity in hell? The punishment is so extreme and doesnât fit the crime. Not a characteristic of a loving and merciful deity.
Great question! Here is the answer: We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love Him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor, or against ourselves. As the first letter of St John states, "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. " To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from Him forever by your own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God is called "hell".
So I encourage myself, and you, and all to choose life now and for eternity! Jesus Christ is the way. Be well, amigo
You didnât answer my question at all lol
I don't think you understand the nature of reality. The structure of reality is fundamentally moral perfection. If you sin, the price of your sin is eternal death relative to moral perfection. Since your moral imperfection earns you eternal death, your metaphor is deeply flawed.
A more accurate metaphor would be, you got caught after murdering a man. At the sentencing, your lawyer tells the judge, "Your honor, this man deserve death, but I will take the punishment in his place so he can walk free." Then mercifully, the judge agrees.
"The wages of sin is death. But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Relative to moral perfection, since you have sinned, you deserve death. But God the Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit set up a deal. Jesus will take upon himself, voluntarily, the eternal death you deserve, and God will make you morally perfect so that you can join God in eternal life.
So the actual choice you have is between eternal death which you deserve because you're not morally perfect, or the free gift of eternal life paid for by Jesus Christ, God, himself, who took the just penalty of your death sentence upon himself, so you can live.
"When we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
By confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believing in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you can be saved and converted from moral imperfection to moral perfection before God, who values you more than your past sins.
This is not coercion. It's a gift of freedom from a loving and extremely merciful God who values you more than his own life.
If you want to pay the price for your moral imperfection, you can. God won't stop you because he values your choice eternally.
But if you want to accept the free gift of salvation from Jesus Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, to make you a new creation and give you eternal life and righteousness, you can choose to.
This is freedom, and you alone are responsible to make this choice.
You are free to choose.
Your definition of sin is worthless because it is arbitrarily determined by an unverifiable piece of scripture. Prove to me that the nature of reality is moral perfection.
If you really wanted to grok the nature of reality, you would ask instead of command.
You made the claim. Burden of proof is on you. If youâre gonna be sensitive then donât bother getting into logical discussions. Stick to the monastery circle jerks.
I'm not being sensitive. I'm showing you that you think you're God.
And your vitriol is evidence of the moral perfection of the nature of reality.
How do I think Iâm god? I never claimed to create anything or demand worship.
Once you entered into ad homonym, this conversation ended. I wish you the best.
What ad hominem? Youâre offended because I called out your baseless claims before you told me to just ask grok for answers? Make a logical argument instead of regurgitating cliche talking points from religion that have no weight behind it. Citing scripture is not evidence.
Worshipping God doesn't enable anyone to enter Heaven. That comes alone through choosing Jesus Christ as your Lord, and savior, and choosing to believe that God raised Him from the dead.
God wants you to worship Him because He deserves it, and because He's the most real thing that exists, and since you become what you worship and He loves you, He also wants you to become real, a god in your own right, one with Him.
God is really that vain?
The Kingdom of God is a state of the heart not an actual physical place. Said Kingdom is within and at hand. The Bible is an user manual on how to achieve this state. This manual has to be understood as whole otherwise it appears to contradict itself.
For me one of the greatest mysteries is how the King James version still makes mathematical sense even without certain chapters edited out (lookup the amazing mathematical coincidences). The Books of Enoch (Noah's grandfather) are such omissions. He was literally handpicked by God for being the best human ever.
It's best not to judge anyone for being an atheist or deeply religious. The Great Plan is unknown to all humans despite many contrary claims.
Iâm not atheist.
When something like a religious text is open to interpretation, it leads to confusion and conflict. Think of the different sects that have gone to war with each other over disputes of interpretations. Sunni/shia, Catholics/protestants, Old Testament/talmud.
If your text canât be interpreted from a literal sense, then violence and conflict is inevitable. Iâve seen people interpret verses from the Bible to try and prove that homosexuality is not a sin. Would you accept that? Of course not. Most would not either. But that wonât stop people from trying and wonât prevent unnecessary violence.
So these texts must be interpreted literally. Especially since the text itself doesnât tell you to interpret it metaphorically. And when you interpret it literally, heaven is a physical place.
I see your point. It's not my place to judge the choices of other people.
Try writing a paragraph, let alone an entire book, and try to understand it 2,000y from now. The meaning of words changes over time a lot. My favorite example is the etymology of 'yield'. đ€
I agree itâs hard but books like meditations and the republic have held up very well. Regardless, a deity with infinite power and no limitations can make it work. The deity can preserve it or update. Or find a more useful means of communication like nostr.
Meditations is a different kind of book. It's a great read but it serves a different purpose.
The Bible is not a book but rather a collection of texts with many authors and one source of inspiration. All were written by people who managed to get themselves in a special state of heart and mind. The skeptics argue that it's written decades after the events so it can't be accurate. The thing is logic has its limits.
I've spent many years fighting it but I wasn't really reading it properly. This is why I can relate to both sides of the argument because I was in both worlds myself.
My advice to anyone enquiring about the Bible in good faith is to investigate it without prejudice. One day it will click but that moment is tailored specifically for your needs. This is my experience anyway. The Bible can be experienced and once it happens you'll see for yourself what's what. Then it's not a matter of belief but of knowing first hand.
But weâre talking about a religious text from the all powerful who intends for all of humanity to receive this message. And he chose one language in one region and one people to reveal it to. And he knowingly allowed it to be corrupted and did nothing as its message was lost over time.
And how do you even verify a collection of stories written by countless authors? Did you know that Jesus is not the first person that religion claimed to be born without a father? Thereâs been countless others. How can that be?
Just test it in good faith. I'm not sure if I can be any more clear about it. See for yourself if it holds water or not.
Iâve heard this a million times. Tried it countless times. People of all religions say this and swear it works. There is no other explanation for it than placebo.