Even though bitcoin has plenty of privacy to protect the average user and even better privacy for more advanced users, If your money becomes worthless than privacy won't do you or your family much good.
Monero is a hot potato, toss it to someone else while you can and save in a hard currency like bitcoin.
Re chart: I simply clicked show all so that was as much data as the exchange could provide. There's zero intent to deceive, all this info is available to anyone.
>bitcoin has plenty of privacy to protect the average user and even better privacy for more advanced users
convince DNM admins or shut up. nobody actually believes this
What about liquid lightning coinjoin ecash and buying BTC p2p ?
*getting ready for the crickets 🍿
expensive and too complicated to use. Monero is simple
If you can do a swap BTC-XMR you can swap with any of the solutions I listed
Except none of those offer strong privacy except ecash. And ecash is custodial and rehypothecatable. "Pass-thru" privacy doesn't give you the full benefits.
I heard that Monero's cryptography hides so much data that we may not know if its supply is inflated by a bug. Similarly with ecash you can't verify if you're mint is doing fractional reserve. But at least those ecash mints run the bitcoin stack and support mainchain and its network effect.
Ecash supply of the mint can be arbitrarily printed - that's centralized issuance and no PoW. Pretty big difference.
It's also still custodial.
Yes but the transaction speed and cost is not the same as with a PoW blockchain, It could be used to buy a coffee, also there can be federated mints , and I'm sure someone is working on proof of reserve for ecash mints .
Also look at Monero block rewards this is scarry
Monero is half a cent to transact...
Federated mints make it no less custodial.
Why is Monero block reward scary? It currently has less inflation than Bitcoin.
Yes, I know what you're talking about for proof of reserves, it's Calle working on it, and it is an incomplete method with many issues which Calle says himself. And even if it was figured out you need both proof of reserves and proof of liabilities, which you can't do.
Yes the transaction cost is nothing because there is low demand to transact on it.
Because there is not much demand miners are not paid a lot, ~50000usd/day.
You are wrong. The reason Bitcoin is so expensive to transact on is because of it's fixed blocksize. Monero has a dynamic blocksize, so even with the same demand it would adjust and would be just as cheap to transact as right now.
Ah ok it would be impossible to run a node (imagine behind TOR) if Monero had a lot of transaction going if its dynamic
Not necessarily.
That all entirely depends on the rate of adoption.
Average internet speed continues improving every year.
1 terabyte wasn't even available/affordable. Today it's no big deal. You can also find a 1 terabyte microSDs for $20-$30 and its the size of your pinky nail. Consumer tech constantly improves. So does protocol level efficiency. Monero transactions have been shrunk ~80% with bulletproofs since it was created
Last time I synced a bitcoin node behind tor it took me a week with fiber.
Not everybody as access to fiber or unlimited bandwidth.
Sure, but not every single person in the world needs to run a node either. Decentralization is not binary. And at this moment in time it is much easier to sync a full Monero node than a Bitcoin node. It's a fraction of it's size. You can also prune to make it even smaller.
Yes but to prune you first need to sync.
Not everybody has to run a node, but to be part of that network at least having the layer 1 synced is a minimum for me.
I like that with bitcoin you can add different services to it, I like the creativity of bitcoin devs.
Monero looks like a monolith to me I don't find it interesting even if it's privacy may be good.
You can runand store a Monero node more easily than you can a Bitcoin node, so I don't see how that helps your argument.
I don't understand what you mean about the different services part.
If anything Bitcoin is less creative because of it's ossification it has remained largely the same since it was created. Monero has many more interesting features it has implemented over time like bulletproofs and dandelion.
But to each their own.
For now yes , but if Monero had a lot of users it could not scale because of the big blocks.
With bitcoin you have fucking lightning network , and other layer2 that are continued to be built (element, statechains, ark, DLC markets)
By the way Nostr was built by the bitcoin community also
"If". Pure hypothetical. Fact is none of that is true *right now*, and may never be true. All depends on rate of adoption, consumer tech advances, and protocol level efficiency gains.
Bitcoin can't scale by your metric either and neither can lightning.
"Lightning Network -- Fundamental Limitations" -Paul Sztorc
https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/lightning-limitations
Yes, I know Nostr was built by Bitcoiners. Not sure what your point is.
Yes it cannot scale yet. But its open source, it's a work in progress.
We just need to assure layer 1 survives until we find a solution.
If that is your view, ok that is fine, but then I can just say the same exact thing about Monero: "Yes it cannot scale yet. But its open source, it's a work in progress."
It can't scale because of the big blocks? I don't follow the reasoning here, I'd like to understand what you mean.
Monero blocksize is dynamic , if there was a lot of usage, it could become unusable. Especially for a nomad, someone using tor, someone without access to high speed bandwidth .
Yes, this is a possibility, especially considering that every block must be checked for transactions that have happened since last sync.
But, I'll quote you:
> Yes it cannot scale yet. But its open source, it's a work in progress.
We just need to assure layer 1 survives until we find a solution.
Looks like everyone's in that boat. I'd say that right now we are running into scaling problems with Bitcoin and not the problems you speak of in Monero. Monero as a community has demonstrated itself amenable to implementing improvements, Bitcoin has so far demonstrated the opposite, it's a point of pride among Bitcoiners that they will not accept a hard fork.
Every time you fork, a set of people as to make decisions. Its bad for decentralization.
I think it's better to use bitcoin script to bring scalability and privacy to bitcoin users that opt-in.
This prevent bugs on L1 and avoid us forking every months.
What's wrong with forking?
Scripting is not going to expand throughput of the blockchain.
Forking is bad because it splits the market / community . Like with bitcoin cash, our merchants and applications lost a lot of users.
It erode the value and recognizability of the currency.
Bitcoin has zero privacy. It is a public blockchain. Anyone in the world can see all amounts and transactions that have ever occurred. You mean you can potentially have pseudonymity on Bitcoin (a weaker form of anonymity). Two different concepts.
What is stopping you from saving in Bitcoin, and transacting in Monero?
Yah bitcoin has txs public but no identifying data linked to those txs, and this is widely understood.
Why would I constantly going in and out from btc to monero and vise versa? That would negate what little privacy benefits monero actually has left.
That data can be used to figure out who you are (amount analysis, timing, connections with other transactions). Privacy (unknown actions) AND anonymity (unknown identity) are both important.
You don't constantly go in and out. Why would you do that? You buy enough Monero you're planning to spend for X amount of time (the week, month, etc) and top up at the end of that period.
Maybe you should re-read your own message.
The first part is exactly why the 2nd part doesn't work. Even if it's weekly or monthly that's plenty of enough data to De-Anonymization your monero purchases.
Oh ya? Care to explain how? Amounts and receivers aren't visible at all so I'm not sure how you're imagining that would work in your mind. No transaction graph exists like it does with Bitcoin.
Lol this is basic stuff, bottom line is if you're not careful using bitcoin then you're probably not going to be careful using monero. In either situation there are levels to security and knowledge is key.
If it's so basic then explain it.
You seem to think the only way to get Monero is thru Bitcoin. I can buy Monero p2p no-kyc directly using fiat. That's the main way I acquire Monero.
Also, even if you swap from Bitcoin or another crypto, whatever transactions happen from that point forward on Monero are anonymous and private, all anyone could know is you bought Monero, unlike if those transactions happened on Bitcoin
All things equal Monero is better no matter how you slice it. Way less room for mistakes, simpler, cheaper, quicker, and actual privacy - not merely obfuscation. No need to give up custody either.
You keep telling yourself whatever makes you feel better about being poor and monero losing 95% of its value against BTC. Best of luck.
Another non-sequitur price argument that has nothing to do with what we were discussing, Skipper npub12rrvutnfeu9677d4yjytypqccjn0njnm6zkx2j6xyn2uqfw02ldsrl8ty9
You can still use Bitcoin for long term hodling if you so wish, dingus. I'm talking about transactional privacy. They don't have to be mutually exclusive
Look at the OP of this thread, you're the one that decided to reply to it, my guess is being upset about your bags losing value.
You're the one who started throwing insults and seems upset. Sorry, Bitcoin is surveillance chain by design. It can't be good at everything. Trade offs exist in real life.
Red herring back to price (nothing to do with privacy)
Trade offs like don't put your money into a sinking ship? Yah I tried to tell you that.
Weird, I don't seem to remember telling you how I'm allocated. Keep throwing those herrings 🐟 Let me know when you want to get back on the topic of privacy
Bitcoin @ $10 is no more private than it is @ $1,000,000
What's the problem for non-techies spending via lightning, privacy wise? I read several times LN has no privacy, etc. Monero might be better, but nobody is going to try to account for thousand micropayments over several years over LN, mainly because it'd be an enormous resource sink - no benefit in wasting resources to de-anon small txs over lightning. What's the argument here?
Well, first off, 95% of LN users are on custodial wallets and LSPs that can see everything...so we can cross them out completely...
But even if everyone only ran and used their own LN nodes, receiver privacy sucks and hidden balances can be discovered by probing. Many other things involved like onchain data leaks when opening/closing channels.
It would be relatively easy for a big actor running a large LN node to get a good picture of most of the LN network and save all that data. The effectiveness of onion routing is reduced as LN centralizes over time by everyone routing thru large nodes. Governments, IRS, chain analysis, and even large nodes being coerced with a gag order have all the incentive in the world to do this.
With Monero, even if you don't use your own node you still get all the privacy benefits. A remote node doesn't know who the real spender is, and can't see amounts or receivers at all.
So I guess it just depends if you want kind-sorta-maybe privacy or actual privacy from third parties.
Once a public bitcoin address is linked to you, you can never hide from it. To spend it, everyone will be able to know how much you spent and when, and sometimes to who. But when a public monero address is linked to you, nobody can know how much or where it went. You can continue use it privately. Monero is far superior to bitcoin in every way except it lacks the popularity network effect
Hence never re-using addresses, this is like basic knowledge every bitcoiner knows and gets told from day one, are you new here?.
Also if you're going in and out of monero to btc it gets pretty easy to trace you if you're not careful.
Dude, no one is going to do that. 99% of users are going to re-use Bitcoin addresses and not practice good privacy habits. Privacy on Bitcoin is like trying to convince everyone a screwdriver is also great at hammering nails. Any sane person will just use the right tool for the job. You can still use Bitcoin to save if you want.
The last part is a flaw of Bitcoins' not Monero. Don't go in and out of Bitcoin. Spend Monero directly - problem solved.
WTF are you talking about? Literally every single wallet lets me generate unlimited address from a single address. Even coinbase does this...
It's optional, they can continue using the same address. In fact, it makes more economic sense to do that. Doesn't stop users from consolidating either. Like I said, lots more ways to mess up privacy on Bitcoin.
Not reusing addresses is actually difficult and complex to do, and still traceable. And if you manage to join mix your coins in several rounds, at greater expense, maybe, just maybe you are safe enough. But who wants to do that every time they buy something. And if you aren't going to do that then you might as well just use Swift/vise/paypal since you will be needing to do that anyway in day to day purchases., and -this is the saddest part - its cheaper!
Bitcoin privacy sucks so bad, there are still other advantages to Bitcoin, but nobody should be under any illusion thats its private or cheaper than fiat (unless you are using it to send large amounts and never cash out)
