Nostr Web Client

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

OK, all you "it's just for small payments" custodial Lightning apologists.

I would love to hear nuanced arguments that refute these claims:

1. Adopting custodial wallets now "for small amounts" will lead to slower growth and adoption for proper, approachable self-sovereign setups, both now and in the future

2. Using custodial wallets provide zero privacy from the custodian, w/ zaps tying your nostr identity directly to any other payments you make as a result

3. Once better options are out there for self-sovereign LN, people won't switch because they'll be fully entrenched in the convenience of custodial wallets

4. Often, using custodial LN wallets isn't even using LN at all, as it's just shifting around numbers in a database (Strike>Strike, WoS>WoS, etc.)

5. If the majority of users are adopting custodial LN wallets, there will be far less funding and social pressure for better self-sovereign setups, proper privacy tools (BOLT 12, alias SCIDs, route blinding, etc.) due to so few actual potential users

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I’m guilty as charged. I use WoS, but would rather switch over. What should I do?🙏

Same. Ease of use makes you lazy but that’s just an excuse.

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

Run your own node via something like RaspiBlitz (preferrably on an old laptop or ultra-small-form-factor PC), use Zeus to control it/transact, and you can use something like lnbits (coming soon!) or Tallycoin Connect to receive Zaps:

https://github.com/rootzoll/raspiblitz

https://sovrnbitcoiner.com/receiving-self-sovereign-zaps/

Good info thank you.

Thanks, I’ll give it a try.

The Solution isn’t to call us apologists, the solution is to build something that non-technical people like myself can easily use. I speak for the majority that if there was a non-custodial option for zaps that connected directly to your node easily, then it would be done.

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

"Apologists" isn't even a derogatory term.

The tools are already there, people just need to use and contribute to them:

note19uzmss8sw27py95z6zf6sjlxedwlw307r9gd5xkwvh6yy6gpk4pq85szqf

I just want an app on my node that can generate a lightning address to send and receive zaps. Is that too much to ask(rhetorical)?

Yer it’s strange. I use Zeus. I don’t know any other way to do it. Just new to the node thing

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

Yeah, Zaps are still a bit tricky today but coming along very quickly.

It reminds me of computers back in the 80’s. We are so early.

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

There are already quite a few solutions with many more on the way, one here from #[3]:

https://sovrnbitcoiner.com/receiving-self-sovereign-zaps/

#[4] #[5] so why isn’t behavior consistent yet between these apps? #[3] your note doesn’t preview or load because Damus wants an @ before it, but doesn’t auto add one?? And I had to manually copy Vitor’s npub because you can’t search for his name. Is this a disagreement on how to do things or just 2 apps not yet in lockstep?

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

Search for name, if the person is not yet loaded, uses relay search. Then it depends on which relays are you connected to and if they offer search. By default, amethyst uses nostr.band

I added that relay, still can’t type “@“ then vitor or anything to find your npub.

I’m on Damus btw, thought I remember #[4] saying notes shouldn’t preview unless they have @ or something cuz of a spec (idk why this is the spec, doesn’t make intuitive sense to me, and the amount of missing “@“s that people post seem to corroborate my experience).

And there was a convo between you two about usernames and npubs, it’s above my head, point is I can’t tag you unless I go to your profile and copy the npub, and add an @ in front of it manually in Damus, and sounds like it’s a #[4] issue?

Vitor Pamplona 2y ago

I don't think Damus has online search yet.. do they? I don't know how to activate a new relay for it.

In Amethyst, you need to mark that relay as for Search in the relay list dialog.

And the public release is ages behind the beta, so in his mind maybe it’s all a nonissue already, but man I wish the release cycle was faster… amethyst fomo tbh

Your line of questioning breaks down at # 3. When non-custodial products arrive which are *truly* “better,” the switching costs will be sufficiently low. Then it’s about further education and incentives.

This is why I’d rather back and promote teams and products like #[2] and #[3] than to tear down the rest.

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

Self-custody can necessarily never be *easier* than custodial solutions as it requires actual personal responsibility and at least some effort.

They are already better in that you actually are using these amazing tools and gaining freedom from 3rd-parties as was the goal all along.

You get that. I get that. We are not the norm, and we never will be. I respect and appreciate that you work every day to make this easier and better for a certain audience who are ready to hear it. That audience is not the next billion.

So, as I’ve asked others: would you have Bitcoiners and builders stop onboarding normies altogether until non-custodial products with sufficient ease-of-use arrive, whenever that is?

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

Yes.

Idk why the low time preference portion of Bitcoin goes out the window when it comes to self-custody/privacy.

If the tools aren't ready, don't jump to onboard people to custodial tools that are no different than Paypal. Take the time to onboard them properly or wait until things are ready, donate to devs doing good work, spread the word on excellent solutions, and keep trying new things yourself.

During a panel at the SATSx hackathon last week at #PlebLab, #[6] asked me what advice I’d give startups building in Bitcoin. I offered one word: “non-custodial”.

Meanwhile, it’s not about “we” and our time preference. We aren’t the high priests of Bitcoin. People are finding their own way to it. Better products will prevail. That’s where energy and capital are productively deployed.

☺️ Your response was pleasantly surprising, yet it's exactly the kind of advice that would greatly benefit young bitcoin startups.

Do you recommend something like #Blixt or #Breeze and connecting it to say an Umbrel?

Would that be able to send and receive zaps?

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

Receiving Zaps is more tricky but can be done today on Umbrel, great guide by #[3] here:

https://sovrnbitcoiner.com/receiving-self-sovereign-zaps/

Thank you I'll give this a try.

Got the tallycoin part setup but I think I need to put Bitcoin in the wallet and then open some channels first before I can us it?

finch ☦️ 2y ago

You need to have inbound liquidity, yes. Opening channels gives you outbound liquidity, so you’ll need to send some sats out of the channel to get inbound liquidity, or have/pay someone with a routing node to open a channel with you.

Is this your first time setting up a Lightning node?

Yes I never set it up before and was just using the Bitcoin node.

finch ☦️ 2y ago

You can buy inbound liquidity from a site like https://amboss.space/magma

For example you could buy a 1M sat channel (for a small fee) and someone will open a channel to your node, providing you with inbound liquidity.

Or if you know anyone with a node that has public channels you can have them open a channel to you.

“I support free markets but make sure to use my noncustodial solution”

Sorry, that’s not how things work. Build a better solution and let the winner emerge.

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

If you take that stance the "winner" will always be custodial solutions (as it always has been) because they require no personal responsibility or effort.

Those of us on nostr today ought to be the ones doing things the right way and pushing others to do the same, instead I seem to be the minority here.

corndalorian 2y ago

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

BTW you can do self-sovereign, non-custodial Lightning + Zaps quite easily today with sufficiently powerful hardware for ~$300 or less:

# Self-sovereign Lightning

## Parts

HP tiny PC - https://www.ebay.com/itm/354567533378?epid=7058281144

2TB 2.5" SSD - https://www.ebay.com/itm/325333961758?epid=2314403619

## Setup

RaspiBlitz for bitcoind and Lightning - https://github.com/rootzoll/raspiblitz

TallyCoin connect for Zaps - https://sovrnbitcoiner.com/receiving-self-sovereign-zaps/

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

This hardware will absolutely obliterate any RaspberryPi setup and last much longer, highly recommend spending a bit more and doing a setup like this instead of going for the bare minimum in a Pi setup.

You'll be really thankful you did when all of your apps and wallets are vastly more performant and responsive!

I’m on it!🙏⚡️

FishyStick 2y ago

🤙

Squirrel Master 🐿️ 🇮🇱 🇵🇸 2y ago

Silly question. I already have a 1 TB SSD connected to my Pi. How do I swap it out for a 2 TB? I used raspibolt.org for my setup.

Thanks!

+boldmouse096⚡️ 2y ago

sudo dd if=/dev/your1TBharddrive of=/dev/your2TBhardrive

then resize your partitions on the new disk with gparted

+boldmouse096⚡️ 2y ago

I found a great blog post for you which I could not find before...

https://wolfgang-ziegler.com/blog/migrate-linux-to-larger-ssd

Squirrel Master 🐿️ 🇮🇱 🇵🇸 2y ago

Thank you!

Disturbia 2y ago

You need a hardware for custodial LN and that is the problem

Disturbia 2y ago

Non-custodial LN

monk_cactus 2y ago

Claim 1) is not refutable. It’s a hypothetical statement about the future. But regardless, we all know the average person will adopt the most convenient setup. So either self-sovereign is more convenient, or it won’t be the most popular. And that really has nothing to do with what is most adopted currently.

Claim 2) is obviously true. As far as privacy and zaps go, I doubt I will ever send an anonymous zap. I want the poster to know I zapped them, just like I want them to know I’m the one who replied to their post.

Claim 3) is claim 1) rephrased. And as I said before, it has little to do with entrenchment. The most convenient solution gets the most users. Period. The only thing that can change that is if users are in a hostile environment.

Claim 4) is probably true. But who cares? If you’ve already traded privacy and sovereignty for convenience, not sure why it’s a concern if custodians are being efficient.

I don’t think Claim 5) is true. It’s not like custodians are sucking up funding that would otherwise go to developers of self sovereign set ups. As soon as a convenient self sovereign set up emerges, it would get a lot of users. This is like saying because fiat exists there’s less pressure and funding for bitcoin development. That doesn’t add up to me. There’s people that care about privacy and sovereignty and people that don’t.

Now how about this? Any self-sovereign setup would require the user to already have bitcoin and make an initial base chain transaction right? In terms of on boarding non bitcoiners to zaps and lightning, it’s great that people are working on custodial solutions that can make this as easy as possible for newbies

monk_cactus 2y ago

Claim 1) is not refutable. It’s a hypothetical statement about the future. But regardless, we all know the average person will adopt the most convenient setup. So either self-sovereign is more convenient, or it won’t be the most popular. And that really has nothing to do with what is most adopted currently.

Claim 2) is obviously true. As far as privacy and zaps go, I doubt I will ever send an anonymous zap. I want the poster to know I zapped them, just like I want them to know I’m the one who replied to their post.

Claim 3) is claim 1) rephrased. And as I said before, it has little to do with entrenchment. The most convenient solution gets the most users. Period. The only thing that can change that is if users are in a hostile environment.

Claim 4) is probably true. But who cares? If you’ve already traded privacy and sovereignty for convenience, not sure why it’s a concern if custodians are being efficient.

I don’t think Claim 5) is true. It’s not like custodians are sucking up funding that would otherwise go to developers of self sovereign set ups. As soon as a convenient self sovereign set up emerges, it would get a lot of users. This is like saying because fiat exists there’s less pressure and funding for bitcoin development. That doesn’t add up to me. There’s people that care about privacy and sovereignty and people that don’t.

Now how about this? Any self-sovereign setup would require the user to already have bitcoin and make an initial base chain transaction right? In terms of on boarding non bitcoiners to zaps and lightning, it’s great that people are working on custodial solutions that can make this as easy as possible for newbies

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

1) We're not really talking "the average person", we're talking those of us already on Nostr and thus early adopters/more hardcore Bitcoiners. If hardcore Bitcoiners are cheering on custodial adoption and championing it, it will lead to less people even exploring/trying self-sovereign setups.

5) These companies are raising money from VCs and gaining fees from users that could otherwise go to self-sovereign setups, FOSS projects, and devs. It is a bit of a zero-sum game here - the more traction custodial wallets get, the less eyes, money, and devs go towards self-sovereign setups.

6) Why in the world are we happy that custodians (the "3rd parties" Satoshi *made Bitcoin to route around*) are the preferred onboarding method for new users? Onboarding someone to WoS doesn't even get them Bitcoin, nor does it even mean they will ever use Bitcoin. They are *entirely* at WoS mercy for custody, privacy, rug pulls, etc. I cannot, ever, get behind the stance that onboarding noobs to custodial wallets is the best thing and something to be cheered on. If we can't *actually onboard them to Bitcoin* why even do it?

monk_cactus 2y ago

What I said re: convenience holds for the average person, and clearly also for bitcoiners. When presented with the problem of “how do I get an lnurl to get zaps?”, it’s clear what people chose.

So WoS and get alby are sucking up the money that would otherwise go to developers of self-sovereign set ups? Give me a break.

Why are we happy that custodians (the "3rd parties" Satoshi *made Bitcoin to route around*) are the preferred onboarding method for new users?

Happiness has nothing to do with it. It’s about practicality and being realistic. There is a huge part of the population that does not care about bitcoin, privacy, and sovereignty. And they never will unless they get burned. The only reason they would use bitcoin is because it can do something for them (eg zapping, boosting a podcast, buying from nostr marketplace). I still want these people on nostr because I want value 4 value to reach as many people as possible. I want more customers in the future nostr marketplace. I don’t see how you on board a non bitcoiner to lightning without custodians. And if they get burned, well then that’s the best lesson anyone could ever have about the importance of sovereignty.

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

Phoenix? Breez? Blixt? SBW?

Lots of great non-custodial options for Lightning if people can wait for zap receive support and focus on just spending and receiving tips.

You’re right, we need to be promoting non-custodial wallets. Would Phoenix be a good enough compromise? It’s non-custodial but there are privacy trade offs. But almost as easy as WoS

Phoenix doesn’t work with zaps as it doesn’t support LNURL. But I agree I’d use Phoenix if it was supported. Needs to be a mobile solution.

I’m going to try to use Zeus as a controler on Mobile to access my own node on an ultra small form factor pc. It is open source and supports lnurl. Wish me luck!

https://zeusln.app/

Nice 👍

True, you can't receive but you can send. Receiving on LN is not private on any solution though

Yea that’s right.

monk_cactus 2y ago

I was using phoenix to send zaps. It works well, although I sometimes had issues connecting to electrum. It’s worth giving it a try

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

💯

I have and Phoenix is great

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

Yes, that's a great solution!

monero is non-custodial and 100% private unlike lightning

21seasons 2y ago

Monero is not scalable, has unlimited supply, is more complex(less code reviewing), less recognizable, and offers zero to little privacy benefits when used as a privacy tool.

monero is scalable can do more transactions than visa

it has limited supply. tail emission. math. smarter. can be mined on any computer. cultmembers with no information about it spread lies about it. monero does not care.

21seasons 2y ago

Last time I checked Monero tx's were over 10x in size compared to Bitcoin tx's -> not scalable.

Also the supply is unlimited, unlike your time. Why would you exchange your limited time for something that's unlimited? 🤔

Is there a way to run the numbers and verify current supply?

21seasons 2y ago

Also Monero has fewer nodes running and less hashrate compared to Bitcoin-> less secure, weaker assurances.

I understand that some people like to gamble with shitcoins and that's completely fine. But advising people to hold something that's less secure is either ignorant or dishonest.

it is nonsense what you write. monero is more secure than any other cryptocurrency because it is a community driven project, mined by individuals on any computer. monero is the most secure private cryprocurrency.

if you want to have an informed discussion, you will need to study the facts first. calling people names speaks for your inability to discuss and is a sign that you do not have any arguments.

https://eprint.iacr.org/2019/411.pdf

Monero = Manure💩 #Bitcoin only!👁️👁️❤️‍🔥

21seasons 2y ago

Monero is way less secure than Bitcoin on multiple fronts. That's a very clear fact. We can talk about and compare developing processes, code reviewing, running nodes, verifying tx's, hashrate, geolocations etc.

Bitcoin is not perfect, but nobody can say it's not the most secure computer system existing without being dishonest.

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

This is all either very outdated or flat out wrong. Answers to all of your points here:

https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/dispelling-monero-fud/

21seasons 2y ago

This information also confirms that Monero has unlimited supply.

I was wrong about scalability, nowadays Monero tx's takes 3-4 times as much space than Bitcoin tx's, not 10x. So Monero is just 3-4 less scalable than Bitcoin.

What's the command in monerod to get the exact current supply of Monero? I'll try this immediately.

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

You can see the command here:

monero is a more modern, more advanced system than bitcoin. it has larger block sizes and can still do more than 7000 transactions per second which is more than visa does in reality (not the fictious number).

monero realized satoshi's vision of privacy in his whitepaper(nr.10):

https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

supply is limited. monero is limited to tail emission of less than 1%. unlike other cryptocurrency which have 0% tail emission leaving miners with no incentives after all coins are mined pushing fees to extremes..

https://localmonero.co/knowledge/monero-tail-emission?language=en

you can verify here:

https://localmonero.co/blocks/

if you want to discuss monero, get some basic knowledge about it first. this is a good starting point:

https://www.getmonero.org/library/Zero-to-Monero-1-0-0.pdf

you can also verify the code of the monero network here:

https://github.com/monero-project/monero

I keep Phoenix around and will switch to it permanently the moment I can use it to receive zaps. I don’t know if that means BOLT12 or what

You are right, and by the end of the day today I will retire WOS. What's the best setup for umbrel node?

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

Good info here:

https://sovrnbitcoiner.com/receiving-self-sovereign-zaps/

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

Ah, thought this was under my thread.

#[8]

1. How many self sovereign Bitcoiners started on Coinbase or another custodial exchange. ALMOST ALL OF US. I submit that onboarding people leads to MORE self soverign adoption in the long run. Evidence: on chain Bitcoin.

2. Lightning & zap privacy is abysmal. Zap privacy is barely increased, if at all, by using non custodial wallets.

3. See #1

4. you can sweep it. Why not tell people to install Phoenix and sweep to it? (God, I wish we were having THAT discussion right now. Please can we pivot to telling everyone something actionable? Please?)

5. Some of these things will be adopted by custodial wallets. Also, self sovereignty and convenience are linked competitions. The most popular wallet is the one that does both best.

Sweet I think I did it. Someone zap me and I will 2x it back

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

Zapped, no need to send any back 🙂

Nope! Now I really have to send it back. it came to my WOS? Wtf I put my talltcoin address in my profile?

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

Possible my client hadn't updated trying again

Thomas Paine 2y ago

For a non-technical person, an own LN is simply to hard to configure/rebalance. Buying inbound liquidity is such a silly thing to do (conceptually)...

Why can't more technological verse people act as custodians? Is there something like an open protocol to act as custodian for a LN-wallet?

Seth For Privacy 2y ago

That's exactly what Fedimints can be, and one of the key goals of them.

Still custodial so I'm not sure where I land but a better in-between.

ビットコイン 2y ago

Muun...