Nostr Web Client

💯

Human interaction>money.

To me is no different than saying hugs have no value. If I do something that adds value to someone’s life, and they reach over and give me a genuine hug, that means more to me than 10,000 sats.

In absence of an algorithm to game, likes serve exactly the same purpose as zaps to me, which is to show someone appreciates something I said or did. Making a boy to game likes on Nostr would be kinda pointless.

Merdellow 2y ago

💯 both nostr:npub1g3827ewz6d23rlgdhkaslc78gyule52ymcqdyt2hsxdwtlw8dt5q7dfpvg and nostr:npub1wtuh24gpuxjyvnmjwlvxzg8k0elhasagfmmgz0x8vp4ltcy8ples54e7js get it.

I think it's easy to see likes as an evil holdover because they were used in a manipulative way by legacy algorithms.

Well yeah, like every. Single. Fucking. Aspect. Of. Everything. As Merdellow said....there's no point in gaming likes here.

Onlyzaps has become an extremist cult in a way, where people overcorrect so far in one direction they demonize random things that remind them of past bad experiences. Show me on this doll where the 👍 hurt you.

My opinion on it remains the same as when the debacle began. Likes aren't valueless, they just have no value to people who don't value them. Value is perceived, if you don't appreciate small gestures or social niceties then I think you're kind of a snobby dick head, but it's your right. And I respect your ability to shut it off, as long as you respect my ability to partake in what equates to a smile or wave.

Everybsingle like my friends and followers leave has value to me. Is it as valuable as a zap, a reply, a boost? Of course not! But I also have no expectations that people are going to pay me for a comment. I'm happy when they do, but I don't see it as the baseline for human interaction.

Sorry, it was Samecat that said that, but we're on the same page 😂

Merdellow 2y ago

Correct nostr:npub1wtuh24gpuxjyvnmjwlvxzg8k0elhasagfmmgz0x8vp4ltcy8ples54e7js was on point with his point of human interaction.

Like nostr:npub1g3827ewz6d23rlgdhkaslc78gyule52ymcqdyt2hsxdwtlw8dt5q7dfpvg said their are dangers in having extreme views on either side as what is acceptable . Let the user decide what is most appropriate. Is this type of mentality not what we all ran away from and sought refuge on here for?

Ascribing what value should or shouldn't be in relation to thoughts or ideas is the wrong way to look at things. If you want to make money create a product or sell a service. Ideas and thoughts are priceless. Value is just as open ended as the individual. For me a like is an official endorsement that can't be taken back, a repost is co-signing and a zap is well a zap a monetary exchange of value, which is their choice. Other people might have a differing view on what each tool does, which proves my point as what I think value is, is different than what you think it is. As nostr:npub1g3827ewz6d23rlgdhkaslc78gyule52ymcqdyt2hsxdwtlw8dt5q7dfpvg pointed out their are other forms of capital and a like is an expression of social capital. It is an endorsement that I like what this person is saying and acknowledgement.

The danger of a OnlyZap world is it will invite the shitcoin casino of parasites and grifters. Where their only goal is to extract as much value as possible without giving anything back to the community. All you have to do is look at all the scammy ways shitcoin projects build their communities inorganicaly and ultimately fail. Constant giveways, botting and worst of all airdrops. Every single one of those enticements kill communities as once the money stops flowing people move on to the next fresh host. It's a value black hole. Does the Nostr community want a future similar to this?

The #nostr protocol is beautiful in the sense that it's open-ended and I would remind #devs not to get wrapped up in believing that one solution is better than the other and take away choice from the user. Let the user decide what value they would like to exchange.

I think the extreme opinions on either side of issues are always driven by fear and misunderstanding of the other view. In this case, Onlyzaps maxis blame likes for poisoning the social media well, while those who resent it see it as way to cheapen social interaction by tying everything to money.

In reality what we all fear and hate is manipulation and corporate algorithms that make us pawns. That's why being monetized has such a bitter feeling to many, lkke being used. It's why the like function gets so much hate, because it was used as a tool to train behaviors. When in reality we're all just craving freedom from manipulation and decentralization. So let's not centralize or start thought policing to combat centralized thought policing. Give the user all the power to curate their own experience.

You summarized this well for my side.

I also think it will hurt Nostr adoption much more than it will help BTC adoption.

I’ve been wrong before, but I know I wouldn’t have stayed sans the option to like. Now I plan to operate a lightning node in the future. And I still click like and enjoy likes. Options are king, imo.

Like most good comments, I both liked and zapped this 😉

I will put them both in my little piles of treasure. ❤️

Yeah I agree. This idea that value must be tied to some arbitrary monetary amount seems pretty silly. I get value from things that are completely free of charge all day long.

💯 While we don't want to be stuck in old toxic habits or fiat mindset, isn't expecting every human interaction and expression to carry some monetary or quantifiable numeric value exactly the same thing as being played by an algorithm?

We found ourselves in the place we were because technology manipulated us into behaving inhumane to each other for the profit of others. Nostr has been a breathe of fresh air because we all started acting like humans again. So let's not try to repeat history and force monetize the human experience.

The storyteller makes no choice

soon you will not hear his voice

his job is to shed light

and not to master

Since the end is never told

we pay the teller off in gold

in hopes he will come back

but he cannot be bought or sold

- Robert Hunter

You can't borderwallet your stack into the afterlife. Maybe you pass it down, and your sats will be a forgotten number in someone else's wallet.

What will remain are the actions you took, the words you shared, the lives you touched, the people you connected with. Proof of work isn't all measured in sats, the most value we can ever partake in is communication.

Couldn't agree more!

MainStreetChungus 2y ago

Let’s pull on this idea of the reach of 121 people vs a 21 sat zap…

The only reason that your “reach” is valuable is because it is a way for advertisers to monetize you. They have everyone conditioned to want to get the biggest audience they can so that advertisers can put their ads in front your huge audience.

This model incentivizes gaining the biggest audience, which is not the same as providing actual value to people. It appeals to people’s most base desires for attention and it is very easy to spin up bots to dole out likes to fake an audience to capture the ad revenue.

The 21 Sats, while tiny in terms of USD value today, represents a portion of the entire global #Bitcoin network that is protected by POW miners. Actual energy went into mining that 21 sats, and that is now being exchanged for value. There are only 21 million Bitcoin, so it is much harder to fake the exchange of a sat than a like.

This is V4V 💜🤙

Aurelius 2y ago

I’m thankful just to have someone read one of my posts. Keep your sats. If you take away something that challenges your world view, that’s enough.

Your reach can be valuable to you as well though. Likes are kind of like a read receipt that you were able to connect your message to another user. If you're goal is ultimately to utilize social media to share a message, it's not a terrible thing to get some kind of validation that your message was able to hit in the way you'd hoped it to and that you were able to engage with an audience.

This is just my own personal experience so you can take it for what it's worth, but ever since this concept of 'Only Zaps' came into existence, I feel like my day to day engagement has fallen off a cliff & personally I feel less inspired than I was just a few months ago, to stay as engaged & provide content on #Nostr at the amount that I was engaging early on.

There seems to be a real disconnect between people who read “value” and think money, and those who think “connection” or whatever other metric adds joy and quality to one’s life.

Money is not the only thing people value. Being heard can be valuable. Not feeling alone can be critically valuable. Intellectual debate can be valuable both for individuals and the society at large.

My entire premise is that likes express a different kind of value, which money *cannot* substitute for.

I enjoy having the option to do both. Sometimes I like, sometimes I zap, often I send both. And each variation expresses something different. I see having both as one of the killer features of Nostr - it’s a more granular and expressive way of showing appreciation.

Yeah I agree 💯 so I'll really never care for the 'all of nothing' approach of Only Zaps. Fortunately I'm an Amethyst user so we've still got the option for both.

It’s opt in on Damus as well. I’m liking you from there right now ❤️

unclebobmartin 2y ago

I consider zaps to be private-ish, while likes are very public.

From: TheSameCat<-ringo at 05/24/23 08:33:27 on wss://relay.damus.io

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>There seems to be a real disconnect between people who read “value” and think money, and those who think “connection” or whatever other metric adds joy and quality to one’s life.

>Money is not the only thing people value. Being heard can be valuable. Not feeling alone can be critically valuable. Intellectual debate can be valuable both for individuals and the society at large.

>My entire premise is that likes express a different kind of value, which money *cannot* substitute for.

>I enjoy having the option to do both. Sometimes I like, sometimes I zap, often I send both. And each variation expresses something different. I see having both as one of the killer features of Nostr - it’s a more granular and expressive way of showing appreciation.

This is very well stated

The reason my reach is valuable isn't because of someone else's ad revenue. It's because as a content creator, an educator and someone focused on community, reaching as many individuals who connect with me and what I share as possible. I network for me and my community, not because of ads.

:P 2y ago

What if those 121 likes are bots 🤖

And what if your 21 sats came from a bot?

Who's out there liking with bots? What do they gain by doing so? Why does it matter to you if a like holds no value. I've had a lot of folks like notes just this morning, and I know them. They aren't bots. And their likes are appreciated, they aren't meaningless.

🐢 2y ago

You’re a fiat maxi.