You would rather have a post with no likes and a single user zapping 21 sats or a post with 0 zaps and 121 likes ?
Discussion
121 likes 😀
No like and 21 sats zap😉
This is true for 21sats because it's the perfect zap. Less true for 15 or 25 sats 😂
If one is motivated by engagement and reach then one should prefer 121 likes over a single zap, but maybe that’s an extreme example.
I’d rather get a single zap than 5-10 likes for sure.
Correct 🫡
Happy with any interaction 🙏🏽🧡
121 likes if I may be honest. I want to say the zap but my brain won’t allow it 😔
Same
How about 21 likes vs 21 sats?
Likes
If there were 21 people each zapping 1 sat, then it would be different. The more people liking mean the more people found this post a little bit helpful.
This.
This makes sense. I was thinking something similar, that 21 like, is 21 people. 1 person zapping is only one person.
One other question.
Do you evaluate a like differently if:
* you can only like
* you can zap and like as well
I think if a zap seems automated, I don’t value it as much. I get some zaps that are like 5 sats every time and that seems to indicate that they are autozaps. My mind disregards them. Pretty much anything below 100 sats feels like spam even though it could be a person zapping 21 sats or 69 sats 😉
And auto likes? 😁
If they were occasional auto likes, I might not be able to tell and would treat them as legit likes.
But, if someone is liking all of my notes or even too many notes, I’d probably ignore them. It’s weird to like everything someone says. To me that just feels like spam or kissing ass.
I think the same.
So for me, like and zap are tools. They both can have different usecases.
Both can be overused.
At the end, the meaning is important.
Automatic stuff has less meaning.
If someone likes everything, it also has no meaning.
If you can like and zap, you can attach different meaning to them, compared to the "traditional" system.
Also the problem with likes is, its easy to "create" them. Maybe we shall add proof of work to likes to show that we mean that like by mining it. Would be an interesting concept. Still it would be "free" to give, because you only pay your electricity. You don't have to use additional money, but it would have kind of a proof in it.
I also use likes as acknowledgments. Liking a note can mean I read it and saw what you had to say. I may agree with it in full, partially or not at all. That person will never know which it is. But, that only applies if they reply to me.
If I’m not the opposite party in a conversation then it’s most definitely an agreement about their statement - again partial or full.
I hate my mind for this. I don’t care for likes but given those choices, despite actually knowing what’s better, my animal brain still craves the likes.
Right! This implies there is some msats value on likes, which is a per-user subjective function of # of likes, # of zaps, and sum of zaps.
I hate myself for even thinking this or saying it but anything below 100 sats feels like it could be automated and doesn’t carry the same level of significance as say… a 420 zap.
Maybe that just means I’m still on the fiat standard despite telling myself I’m not? 🤷♂️
Or just brainwashed for years to be addicted to likes.
I do value conversations above all other metrics I think. Even with just 1 person.
Get it out of my brain please, need to switch that switch .
Same
also probably an unpopular opinion: logically 121 likes is a very good affirmation for your posts, a good data point, might actually be more valuable than those 21 sats, at-least in the short term.
Same 🥲
🤔9 hours ago… “Nothing excites me more than nostr and zaps ⚡️🐱”
I like both, i toggle #onlyzaps depending on how busy my feed is at any given time. I use it more as a noise reduction filter.
Agree… #onlyZaps definitely cleans up my notifications. I think it will just take time for people to get past the legacy “like” system, especially millennials who grew up with FB and Twatter.
Speaking of #zaps, ever thought about a dynamic zap amount? Like a zap setting that tracks a Moscow minute? #[5] also had a cool concept where the zap amount increases the longer you hold it. 🤙
who prefers likes to sats? sats are internet points you can use to pay for stuff
Both are free. So to me they are the same.
Prefer the zap. As it shows I've actually added some value to another user.
However, the "likes" may be necessary to keep engagement & the application sticky🤷🏻♂️
I vote for ‘Likes’🤙🏼
I know I'm supposed to say the 21 sats but...
I would prefer the zap but not a zapbot one but from real person.
121 likes means that I reached at least 121 people with my post. 21 sats suggest that I reached significantly fewer people, perhaps only one. So I choose the 121 likes.
121likes.
Zaps 🫡
Bots can easily spin likes.
I see a proof of work future where we get away from the social backscratching.
With that said, 1 zap is one step in that direction.
Ultimately a comments are the purest form of engagement though. This is what has set Nostr apart.
I'd rather 10 comments
zap⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡
I guess 121 likes over a single user zapping me 21 sats. It’s nice to know when others relate to your posts. In real life, I’m okay with whatever engagement that I get.
The one which better indicates the amount of people my post has reached. Zapping is a cool idea in a world where most people have a disposable income. But we don't live in such a world.
I'd zap you, but you're not lightning enabled🙅♀️
I'd prefer reach, rather than zaps and likes
121 likes > 21 sats
Based on the size of my current network, more value could be gleaned from I higher like count than from one interaction that understands v4v.
I prefer zap⚡️⚡️
121 likes but only due to the shear difference in volume. Zaps are definitely better.
I think it depends on how the client decides to handle the different aspects.
Sometimes I interact with notes based on how I personally want to save or review them. I find myself bookmarking a lot of content that I find valuable however the creator of the note is completely unaware of it. Nostr is so much more than traditional social media and I'm starting to think that trying to create within that limited framework is actually limiting and slowing nostr on its growth path.
If clients differentiated between likes, zaps on the user side and on the liker, zapper side (I had a record of all the notes I've liked and zapped) I am then incentivized to use them differently.
Right now they just seem like varying degrees of the same signal in which the weaker will inevitably fade and drown out.
#onlyzaps
21 zaps ⚡️
#onlyzaps
Engagement is engagement. A like, a reply or a zap all of equal value to me, what people use, is how they demonstrate what value they place, on my post or the project I am here on behalf of.
Zaps > likes
Knowing that a post reached 121 individuals is more valuable than <$0.01 with confirmed reach of only 1.
Not all value is monetary in a social setting. Both small zaps and likes are barely engagement, but they are engagement. I don't intend to ever deprive my people from having a way to interact with my content without a financial or time cost. If they aren't stopping to comment, my words weren't valuable enough to warrant it, and I don't expect payment in lieu of what equates to an upvote or mark of approval. Zaps are amazing, and a huge part of why I love Nostr, but they are not the same as a like, and there will be many who will not use them.
💯
Human interaction>money.
To me is no different than saying hugs have no value. If I do something that adds value to someone’s life, and they reach over and give me a genuine hug, that means more to me than 10,000 sats.
In absence of an algorithm to game, likes serve exactly the same purpose as zaps to me, which is to show someone appreciates something I said or did. Making a boy to game likes on Nostr would be kinda pointless.
💯 both nostr:npub1g3827ewz6d23rlgdhkaslc78gyule52ymcqdyt2hsxdwtlw8dt5q7dfpvg and nostr:npub1wtuh24gpuxjyvnmjwlvxzg8k0elhasagfmmgz0x8vp4ltcy8ples54e7js get it.
I think it's easy to see likes as an evil holdover because they were used in a manipulative way by legacy algorithms.
Well yeah, like every. Single. Fucking. Aspect. Of. Everything. As Merdellow said....there's no point in gaming likes here.
Onlyzaps has become an extremist cult in a way, where people overcorrect so far in one direction they demonize random things that remind them of past bad experiences. Show me on this doll where the 👍 hurt you.
My opinion on it remains the same as when the debacle began. Likes aren't valueless, they just have no value to people who don't value them. Value is perceived, if you don't appreciate small gestures or social niceties then I think you're kind of a snobby dick head, but it's your right. And I respect your ability to shut it off, as long as you respect my ability to partake in what equates to a smile or wave.
Everybsingle like my friends and followers leave has value to me. Is it as valuable as a zap, a reply, a boost? Of course not! But I also have no expectations that people are going to pay me for a comment. I'm happy when they do, but I don't see it as the baseline for human interaction.
Sorry, it was Samecat that said that, but we're on the same page 😂
Correct nostr:npub1wtuh24gpuxjyvnmjwlvxzg8k0elhasagfmmgz0x8vp4ltcy8ples54e7js was on point with his point of human interaction.
Like nostr:npub1g3827ewz6d23rlgdhkaslc78gyule52ymcqdyt2hsxdwtlw8dt5q7dfpvg said their are dangers in having extreme views on either side as what is acceptable . Let the user decide what is most appropriate. Is this type of mentality not what we all ran away from and sought refuge on here for?
Ascribing what value should or shouldn't be in relation to thoughts or ideas is the wrong way to look at things. If you want to make money create a product or sell a service. Ideas and thoughts are priceless. Value is just as open ended as the individual. For me a like is an official endorsement that can't be taken back, a repost is co-signing and a zap is well a zap a monetary exchange of value, which is their choice. Other people might have a differing view on what each tool does, which proves my point as what I think value is, is different than what you think it is. As nostr:npub1g3827ewz6d23rlgdhkaslc78gyule52ymcqdyt2hsxdwtlw8dt5q7dfpvg pointed out their are other forms of capital and a like is an expression of social capital. It is an endorsement that I like what this person is saying and acknowledgement.
The danger of a OnlyZap world is it will invite the shitcoin casino of parasites and grifters. Where their only goal is to extract as much value as possible without giving anything back to the community. All you have to do is look at all the scammy ways shitcoin projects build their communities inorganicaly and ultimately fail. Constant giveways, botting and worst of all airdrops. Every single one of those enticements kill communities as once the money stops flowing people move on to the next fresh host. It's a value black hole. Does the Nostr community want a future similar to this?
The #nostr protocol is beautiful in the sense that it's open-ended and I would remind #devs not to get wrapped up in believing that one solution is better than the other and take away choice from the user. Let the user decide what value they would like to exchange.
I think the extreme opinions on either side of issues are always driven by fear and misunderstanding of the other view. In this case, Onlyzaps maxis blame likes for poisoning the social media well, while those who resent it see it as way to cheapen social interaction by tying everything to money.
In reality what we all fear and hate is manipulation and corporate algorithms that make us pawns. That's why being monetized has such a bitter feeling to many, lkke being used. It's why the like function gets so much hate, because it was used as a tool to train behaviors. When in reality we're all just craving freedom from manipulation and decentralization. So let's not centralize or start thought policing to combat centralized thought policing. Give the user all the power to curate their own experience.
You summarized this well for my side.
I also think it will hurt Nostr adoption much more than it will help BTC adoption.
I’ve been wrong before, but I know I wouldn’t have stayed sans the option to like. Now I plan to operate a lightning node in the future. And I still click like and enjoy likes. Options are king, imo.
Yeah I agree. This idea that value must be tied to some arbitrary monetary amount seems pretty silly. I get value from things that are completely free of charge all day long.
💯 While we don't want to be stuck in old toxic habits or fiat mindset, isn't expecting every human interaction and expression to carry some monetary or quantifiable numeric value exactly the same thing as being played by an algorithm?
We found ourselves in the place we were because technology manipulated us into behaving inhumane to each other for the profit of others. Nostr has been a breathe of fresh air because we all started acting like humans again. So let's not try to repeat history and force monetize the human experience.
The storyteller makes no choice
soon you will not hear his voice
his job is to shed light
and not to master
Since the end is never told
we pay the teller off in gold
in hopes he will come back
but he cannot be bought or sold
- Robert Hunter
You can't borderwallet your stack into the afterlife. Maybe you pass it down, and your sats will be a forgotten number in someone else's wallet.
What will remain are the actions you took, the words you shared, the lives you touched, the people you connected with. Proof of work isn't all measured in sats, the most value we can ever partake in is communication.
Couldn't agree more!
Let’s pull on this idea of the reach of 121 people vs a 21 sat zap…
The only reason that your “reach” is valuable is because it is a way for advertisers to monetize you. They have everyone conditioned to want to get the biggest audience they can so that advertisers can put their ads in front your huge audience.
This model incentivizes gaining the biggest audience, which is not the same as providing actual value to people. It appeals to people’s most base desires for attention and it is very easy to spin up bots to dole out likes to fake an audience to capture the ad revenue.
The 21 Sats, while tiny in terms of USD value today, represents a portion of the entire global #Bitcoin network that is protected by POW miners. Actual energy went into mining that 21 sats, and that is now being exchanged for value. There are only 21 million Bitcoin, so it is much harder to fake the exchange of a sat than a like.
This is V4V 💜🤙
I’m thankful just to have someone read one of my posts. Keep your sats. If you take away something that challenges your world view, that’s enough.
Your reach can be valuable to you as well though. Likes are kind of like a read receipt that you were able to connect your message to another user. If you're goal is ultimately to utilize social media to share a message, it's not a terrible thing to get some kind of validation that your message was able to hit in the way you'd hoped it to and that you were able to engage with an audience.
This is just my own personal experience so you can take it for what it's worth, but ever since this concept of 'Only Zaps' came into existence, I feel like my day to day engagement has fallen off a cliff & personally I feel less inspired than I was just a few months ago, to stay as engaged & provide content on #Nostr at the amount that I was engaging early on.
There seems to be a real disconnect between people who read “value” and think money, and those who think “connection” or whatever other metric adds joy and quality to one’s life.
Money is not the only thing people value. Being heard can be valuable. Not feeling alone can be critically valuable. Intellectual debate can be valuable both for individuals and the society at large.
My entire premise is that likes express a different kind of value, which money *cannot* substitute for.
I enjoy having the option to do both. Sometimes I like, sometimes I zap, often I send both. And each variation expresses something different. I see having both as one of the killer features of Nostr - it’s a more granular and expressive way of showing appreciation.
I consider zaps to be private-ish, while likes are very public.
From: TheSameCat<-ringo at 05/24/23 08:33:27 on wss://relay.damus.io
CC: #[4]
CC: #[5]
CC: #[6]
CC: #[7]
>---------------
>There seems to be a real disconnect between people who read “value” and think money, and those who think “connection” or whatever other metric adds joy and quality to one’s life.
>
>Money is not the only thing people value. Being heard can be valuable. Not feeling alone can be critically valuable. Intellectual debate can be valuable both for individuals and the society at large.
>
>My entire premise is that likes express a different kind of value, which money *cannot* substitute for.
>
>I enjoy having the option to do both. Sometimes I like, sometimes I zap, often I send both. And each variation expresses something different. I see having both as one of the killer features of Nostr - it’s a more granular and expressive way of showing appreciation.
This is very well stated
The reason my reach is valuable isn't because of someone else's ad revenue. It's because as a content creator, an educator and someone focused on community, reaching as many individuals who connect with me and what I share as possible. I network for me and my community, not because of ads.
What if those 121 likes are bots 🤖
And what if your 21 sats came from a bot?
Who's out there liking with bots? What do they gain by doing so? Why does it matter to you if a like holds no value. I've had a lot of folks like notes just this morning, and I know them. They aren't bots. And their likes are appreciated, they aren't meaningless.
That depend on the type of post
The people saying “likes” haven’t tried living without likes/reactions long enough to break their habits. Zaps/sats all the way. Likes are garbage.
Personally I'm here on social media to help spread a message. Receiving value for my message is secondary to the reach of my message. So all things being equal, absolutely yes I prefer zaps to likes. However if you're telling me the reach of my message is being reduced by 120 people, as is the case that is being presented by Will, I'd surely in this scenario, take the 121 person reach over the measly 21 Sats given out by a single person.
Just my fraction of a cents... 🤪
Why must you take away my pleasures 😭 😂
121 likes all the time.
How much is a like worth?
I’d take the sats.
Duh
121 likes all day everyday.
The first one. It shows that someone actually values what I say
Hmm 🤔 that’s a tricky question, I’ll pick both 😝
#zaps 🤙💜
Why did you wake up and choose violence on such a beautiful day? 😂
Also, a like is a 0 sat zap
121 likes == 21 #zaps ?
Double it and give it to the next person
I switched to only zaps, not because I don't like likes, but like is not an "interaction" I am looking for. I prefer if someone write a comment or even reply with emoticon, then I know he/she put a lil bit efford not just press like. I am testing it, if it works? No idea, we will see.
Rather have a zapped post. Once you go OnlyZaps then likes seem trivial. (Because they’re just read receipts in the end).
Likes are cheap, sats are not.
Likes have no opportunity costs.
Please…no likes and a single user zapping 21 sats 🙏
I know I'll be in the minority saying this on nostr, especially with the recent campaigning for zaps and against likes, but i'd prefer the likes.
121 likes is a lot of viewers and acknowledgement that a post I made was in some way beneficial to others. That's more likes then I've ever gotten on a nostr post. And yes, comments and boosts are more engaging then likes, but likes are not zero effort either.
Zaps are always nice, but it's not always about v4v. There's more people out there without the ability to zap than there are that can.
In general, reaching more people is better.
I think most people would choose the likes
Would love to have polls for questions like these 💜
The problem with polls right now is that there is no way to vote without zapping value.
Agreed, I think overtime it could be removed
I'd take the likes. 121 is a lot of likes. That note must have been a banger. 21 is not a lot of sats.
I hope so. And seeing it seems that way reading through more of the responses.
There is probably a threshold unique to each individual for where they prefer lower reach zaps over a greater number of likes. To me it's not 1 like for 1 sat. Maybe for someone it's 20 to 1. For example, theyd rather receive 19 likes then a zap of 1 sat, but at 20 likes and 0 sats they may start questioning the usefulness of what they posted. Mentally if we have some way to know how many times a post was viewed, then that factors into expectations to people's reactions whether it be an up/down vote, a boost, comment, or zap
This threshold is also likely influenced over time by the halvings, spending power of Bitcoin, and changing circumstances.
Need more clients to support down votes and other emoji reactions to posts. Both as a reaction and tallying
I'll take zaps over likes all day, even if it's less than a penny.
#onlyzaps likes feel so empty after receiving zaps. If someone likes your content and they have a wallet, then 1 sat, 21 sats, 100 sats whatever it is, it makes you feel appreciated in more ways than a like does. I am still working on bringing friends across to Nostr. But when I check in on other platforms, I'm not hanging out likes barely at all now. My habits are changing and I find myself at a loss on how to zap when there is content that deserves rewarding but it isn't on Nostr. What an interesting experiment, thank you for the opportunity to test it 🤩
21 sat zap pls, that’s generational wealth right thurr
Likes do not do that
i wld like 121 feedback
Doesn’t have to be either or. Stop trying to make it so.
Not trying to make anything so. Just curious what the msat value of a like it which prompted this question.
121 likes
I would need over 2100 sats to choose the zaps.
Definitely 121 likes. It means my post reached out to more people.
This thread is like a little psychology study. 😊
I prefer zaps 🥺
0 likes + zaps ⚡️ = fulfilling 🍻💯
Likes
Interesting. I think comments>likes. And comments>zaps. With comments & zaps, likes are hollow dopamine. Let's do away with likes.
Or a toggle for possibility of receiving likes?
Onlyzaps, no likes, bring back the OG onlyzaps.
likes potentially bastardizes our dopamine system/tendencies..particularly it’s receivers. with zap, there is sitg to an extent.
121 one-sat zaps ⚡️⚡️
Btw, would it be possible for a donation slider on zaps *received* in addition to your brilliant recent donation for sats sent? Would be awesome if we could pick who and how much to support with whatever zaps we receive
只要大家都开心，Nostr机器人随时会送任何人121个喜欢。
但zap 21Sats 却弥足珍贵。
Likes
1 sat is all I need
Depends on which me you are addressing, #AllZapsMatter but so do #AllLikesMatter
And I am not trying to dictate others interactions with me…if they 🤙🏻 or ⚡️both give me feelz.
I just appreciate what you’ve done here #[1] ⚡️💜🫶🏻🧡⚡️
ok, zap everyone in this thread who goes for sats ... liked everyone who went with likes ... do you feel the difference?
21 sats, no questions asked
Zaps are best. Likes help me know what the community values but what I care about most is that my notes actually get read by someone who benefits from the content of the note.
Ahh I didn't consider the v4v aspect however it wasn't 121 zaps vs 121 likes which I think makes all the difference.
121 likes
121 likes
Easy answer #OnlyZaps
21 sats from a single user every time. Even 10k likes doesn’t even equate to the value of the sats
121 likes, no question on Nostr today.
A like is to me evidence that someone saw and agreed that the post should be seen. As much as 21 sats is a spam deterrent and has opportunity cost, likes represent for me even more opportunity cost spent in the form of time. The caveat here is I'm assuming likes come from real people whose time is precious, hence the "on Nostr today" qualifier.
What makes the conversion factor hard is that likes are nothing like currency. They are not fungible and cannot be sent on.
I want both. Sats and likes.
onlyzaps ftw
Both likes and zaps can be indicative of range. So if it should be 121:1, definitely the likes.
That zap would most likely be from one person. So Likes because of number of interactions. I had only zaps for a while enabled and was missing all the feedback that was flowing through likes.