hot take: I get that custodial lightning is not remotely decentralized, sovereign, trustless, etc. - all that good shit …

… but is nobody else outrageously excited by how much of an improvement over fiat it is? not just in its own right but even explicitly in terms of decentralisation, sovereignty, and trustlessness?

it strikes me as a key vector of bitcoin driving jurisdictional arbitrage, for one. say some authoritarian regime cracks down on bitcoin (whatever that ends up meaning in practice, doesn’t really matter) and makes it politically risky to run a node, or manage liquidity, or be seen as “transmitting money”, or whatever. if there is a trustworthy custodial lightning provider *literally anywhere in the world* you can anonymously spin up the ability to receive payments in seconds. “anonymously” and “in seconds” are both groundbreaking advances if you have any familiarity whatsoever with fiat banking and payment rails.

if you think about it, you actually can’t get this with “real” lightning either. it’s not instant (to set up) and you need to know people who presumably trust you to some small extent to get to the point of workable liquidity and stay there (perhaps under-discussed, but if channel partners “don’t trust you”, they will close or never open, and you can’t use lightning at all. WhO’s TrUsTlEsS nOw HuH?!?)

so yes, this requires trust, but like, fuck me, so does everything in real life 😂 - being overly negative on this strikes me as a kind of core fallacy of appreciating open and decentralized systems: that it’s a spectrum, not a binary. how open and decentralized the foundation is represents the maximum openness and decentralisation of anything built on top, *not the minimum*!

moving away from completely closed and centralised does not necessitate the opposite, it opens up an entire range of new possibilities, all of which come with tradeoffs. but tradeoffs are relative to circumstances in real life, and in real life, selective trust is very much a thing because We LiVe In A sOcIeTy 🤪 - talking about tradeoffs in absolute terms as if the decision to accept them can be made entirely devoid of context is highly regarded. and this isn’t even to get into the rather obvious line of argument that if you want people to ever get to the extreme, having a spectrum to gradually move along is far more appealing than requiring them to jump in at the deep end. i.e. it’s also amazing for adoption.

in conclusion, don’t be highly regarded. support adoption. agree with my hot take. gm, pv 🤙

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That is a hot take here, but I see your point. I trust that Bitcoin Core was writen in a way so as not to rug me. I trust ColdCard, Sparrow Wallet, and the Linux machine I run them on. I trust Tor. I trust my GrapheneOS phone and ProtonVPN.

I've always questioned the trustless/trusted paradigm. Surely it's not a purely binary function.

to be fair, these are important differences, so to some extent there is a binary at least in the definitions, if not the implementations: you could in principle verify core, linux, and graphene. you absolutely cannot verify a custodial lightning wallet.

As long as the base chain is decentralised and secure, we can worry less about those things on layer 2 imho

Some good responses to this on Stacker News

https://stacker.news/items/148773

some bad ones too 😂

😂

Good morning allen. I agree 💯

If you put a majority of your centralized fiat cash in a safe, and keep some spending money in a centralized bank, then even if the bank doesn’t rug you, your money is still being stolen a little at a time.

With Bitcoin, you can keep a majority in your cold wallet, and keep some spending sats in a custodial wallet. You cold Bitcoin is safe and never loses its real worth, but you custodial wallet is also providing you far more privacy and security than any bank.

It’s amazing, and I don’t see how we can continue to live any other way.

Glad you see it, it's hard to convey how tremendous this is. For those familiar with the existing closed banking system... where nobody has access except banks!

It's hard to believe we have already come this far in just over a decade to a global open access financial system. And built on sound money to boot!

Boggles the mind.

the mind, it boggles.

mind-bottling

Technically this is a “hot thread.” 🔥🧵

Preach it. I call this the fiat derangement syndrome. In fiat, there are only the two extreme ends of the spectrum: The cash under your mattress or the money on your KYC'd megacorp bank account or payment provider.

With Bitcoin, we can already see that trust is a wide spectrum: People use stacker news, they buy credits on websites (like namecheap), they mine Bitcoin in Pools (custodial balances), and the most widely-used LN wallet is WOS (even hard core OGs do this).

Another example: You can be the uncle Jim custodian for your family or community with LNbits. What's the fiat equivalent of that? There isn't one.

🤲 PREACH 🤲

And here is a guide, for those that don't know how to build the "uncle Jim" LN bank: https://darthcoin.substack.com/p/bitcoin-private-banks-over-lightning

and

https://darthcoin.substack.com/p/getting-started-lnbits

This image hit me hard 🫂👊🏻

🔥🫂

lol, this pic was so powerful it caused my client to crash and forced me to quit and restart 😂

EXCELLENT 👏 MEMECRAFT 👏 SIR 👏

😂🫡

“WoS is a Shitcoin” - Bitcoin Commissar

Lightning is a shitcoin for that matter 😂 You wanna zap me on Nostr from now on? Here’s my on-chain zapddress:

bc1qjg6htcw0u88728hm5edxa3l652kppqdaq8z799

And now I can never delete that wallet, because what if… 😅

Now if you ever receive coins in that address I can follow up on future utxo movements and maybe figure out some of your activity.. that’s why addresses shouldn’t be shared publicly .. and that’s why Lightning is so much better for that :)

😅

That fee tho 👁️👄👁️

onchain is a shitcoin. confirmation times are unacceptable and chain split risks are too scary. I’m gonna need the private keys to your utxos please.

Makes sense, it’s bacon, bacon, bac… you know what though, and hear me out, but what if we think outside the box here? What if we each contribute to a shared account that requires both our private keys to use it? Then let’s keep a shared Google sheet of how much of that total balance each of us owns, and update that record as we transact back and forth until we’re ready to close it. There’d be a few minor details to iron out but that’d be way quicker than waiting for on chain confirmations AND we wouldn’t have to give each other our private keys. 🤯

you know I’ve thought about it some more and money is a shitcoin. just give me the stuff I actually want to consume please. I want a potential rug-pull window of precisely zero, thank you.

Dang … I don’t have any of the stuff you want to consume, only a representation of stored value that could be exchanged for it with someone else that does have it… sorry if this whole thing was a waste of time.

wtf bro

I know… just sent you half a cent. That oughta make up for it? 🫶

I DONT WANT MONEY I WANT STUFF ARRRRRRGHHHHH

🤣

What kinda stuff?

Allen, that’s simple you just buy all the stuff you want. But what if you don’t want anymore stuff? But your owed stuff? Say if this stuff isn’t liquid then won’t you want

That excess stuff in some kinda liquid form like money?

💀

I think usually not trust is the issue. But the limited options.

If there is only a small number of trustable party, and it is not open for development, you don't really have options, and they can do whatever they want, because you don't have an alternative.

Also there is blind trust versus "calculated" trust. If there is a software, that is closed source, you have to trust the people who wrote it, and who tested it. If it is opensource, more people can validate it, and even make it better. You still trust the 3rd party, but it is totally different at the how.

Cheers 🤙

What a hot take, LOVE it!!!

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Is it really a hot take? From my understanding the consent was always, Store your wealth on chain and keep only on Lightning whatever you would keep in your (cash)Wallet. No pain for me to hold a couple hundred bucks on a custodial LN Wallet.

I dunno, touch it and find out …

Agreed with your hot take. I am a fan of custodial services my self.

The true benefit now is that if you ever wanted to withdrawal all your stash at any point you could.

You can opt in and opt out and use different services to its needs.

With Fiat there is no clear way to “opt out” safely.

Whike i certainly agree completely with this take, I believe we should also all be pushing to take that next step and run your own lightning node. Because of nostr and zapping, the tools to do so are becoming easier by the day.

Both are true imo 😎

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yeah absolutely

As long as people don't forget that they're non custodial, there is no issue.

You shouldn't keep long term savings on a hot wallet (custodial or not).

We want to decentralise & distribute risk. If any

any one of my custodial wallets does a rug pull, my losses are not significant & I can still easily pay someone.

Custodial wallets are convenient & convenience is important for normies.

Agree.

The free and open nature of bitcoin lightning insure a large diverse ecosystem of wallets and services ranging from private noncustodial to fully kyc'd custodial options.

The fact that there will never be more than 21 million bitcoin, and you can always opt out, run your own node and hold your own keys make all these trade offs acceptable. Bankruns ensure bad actors will go bankruot in due time.

Bitcoin is designed to reward honesty.

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Based. Bitcoin doesn't eliminate trust. It helps put trust where it properly belongs.

This is like arguing that email is amazing and decentralized since it's also a spectrum and you can go from using gmail to self hosting your own IMAP/SMTP server at home with your down domain. We all know how they turned out...

The real practical arbitrage is this: if custodians dominate the market, they will dictate the rules and everyone else will have to follow.

Compromising for pragmatism and practicality brought by custodians in the name of adoption is remaking the same mistakes that happened with the original internet.

It’s a balance between being rugged by your provider or bricked by your device.

🤡

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