Pfft. Show me where in the Bible it says that "There shall come from Manitoba a Beave."
Discussion
Nowhere.
But neither does it ever point to one man being elected to be a leader over others. Men ruling over other men is anathema to God's plan, since HE IS THE KING, and by His grace we are called as brothers and sisters of Christ, so I'm a Prince and you are a Prince. I don't need some jumped up robe wearing weirdo trying to tell me he's supposed to be in charge of the earthly Kingdom of God. There already is One. I'll take God at His word over a man, who is, from what little I know of him, ALREADY corrupt.
You asked me to point out in scripture where it says exactly what you believe the Catholic Church to be. Very "Do you still beat your wife?" Of you. Obviously I can't point to scripture saying something about the highly specific windmill at which you tilt. It sounds terrible.
By forcing me to accept your preconceptions you are arguing in bad faith. It is fine if you want to disagree on specifics, you can make accusations that can be rebutted etc. But no one is going to allow you to set up a weird set of goalposts and agree to kick at it.
What I can do is point to Scriptural basis for the actual teaching of the church. It sounds like you have enough issues with those without kremlinology over whether a particular Pope was a closet communist. Since I get a completely different take on Francis etc (hopefully honestly, but who knows) and I assume you are intelligent and well meaning, I can only assume that you are reading everything, from scripture to the news in a different light.
I propose that the base difference is posture toward authority. I accept human hierarchies as a God ordained good and you see them as going against the will of God. If you are willing to provide scriptural basis for your belief, I am willing to provide scriptural basis for mine.
All of the Judges. God telling the Israelites that a human king is NOT what He wanted for the Israelites, whom He set apart to be an example to all nations. Definition and connotation of the Greek word "ecclesia." Early church history. The first few books of Genesis.
I'm not acting in good faith. I'm a functional idiot, but I'm learning more about early church history, biblical Greek, Hebrew and what we are supposed to consider as "ancient" near east culture and history.
NOTHING that I've read or understood puts electing a human to rule others as a God-inspired method of proper living. Just a whole lot of religiosity piled on top of idolatry and false worship in place of a living, breathing, growing closeness with The Most High. (Which I'm very bad at but... By the grace of God, there go I.)
The Catholic Church was established to control the faith of people that was literally eroding the Roman Empire to the point that *it* had to reckon with Christians taking care of each other and the people around them so well that the Roman System was collapsing.
The Council of Nicea was a move to control the faith, as a new arm of the government, and The Catholic Church writ large is still there. Political, ponderous, poisonous.
This all disgusts me.
And I'm NOT cool with commies unless they are good (dead) ones, like the recently late pontiff. Communism and all derivatives thereof are lies from the pits of hell, designed to subvert EVERYTHING that is Good, True, and Beautiful. It is completely and utterly anathema to God and his Purposes. Anyone that calls themselves a socialist CANNOT be a Christian because Christ NEVER coerced anyone to do anything.
I want to stay on the point of human authority for now.
The first point you will probably agree with me. That is a parent's authority over his children.
Colossians 3:20 "Children obey your parents in everything, for it is pleasing to the Lord."
This isn't about kings obviously, but it does establish that submission to a natural authority is not contrary to God's will, in fact in this case it is precisely what he wills.
How about civil authorities? I submit Romans 13:1-7
"Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves.
For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it,
for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer.
Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath but also because of conscience.
This is why you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due"
Again not addressing a king specifically, but God plainly approves of submission to authority. One could argue that God is just referring to His own authority since He is the source of all authority, but while that is true, He plainly means the civil authorities since He mentions taxes.
Ok let's tackle the king thing.
1 Peter 2:13-17
"Be subject to every human institution for the Lord’s sake, whether it be to the king as supreme or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the approval of those who do good.
For it is the will of God that by doing good you may silence the ignorance of foolish people. Be free, yet without using freedom as a pretext for evil, but as slaves of God.
Give honor to all, love the community, fear God, honor the king."
"Be subject" and "Be free" may seem contradictions but the first is discussing subjection to the civil law and the second is talking about interior disposition. It is possible to be free in prison if you are the master of your own mind.
So while I can agree that Judges makes it clear that Human leaders will abuse their power, that does not make structures of authority contrary to God's will, in fact He apparently demands that we submit to them precisely because he gave them authority over us.
Also Judges is before Kings. Both chronologically in the Bible and historically. King Saul and King David were both after the period of the Judges. Isaiah 22:22 is also referring to both a Jewish king (Eliakim) and is a foreshadowing (so to speak) of Christ Jesus the King of kings. Orthodox and Catholics are taught this because we are the ones that compiled the biblical canon.
Do you not realize that, as I've said before, that God did not want any other king but Himself over the nation of Israel, whom He chose for Himself? Why in world do you Catholics and, to some extent, Orthodox, ignore that part of the story?
It is written in the first book of Samuel:
'And the Lord said to Samuel, “Listen to the voice of the people regarding all that they say to you, because they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being King over them. Like all the deeds which they have done since the day that I brought them up from Egypt even to this day—in that they have abandoned Me and served other gods—so they are doing to you as well. Now then, listen to their voice; however, you shall warn them strongly and tell them of the [b]practice of the king who will reign over them.” So Samuel spoke all the words of the Lord to the people who had asked him for a king. And he said, “This will be the practice of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and put them in his chariots for himself and among his horsemen, and they will run before his chariots. He will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and some to do his plowing and to gather in his harvest, and to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will also take your daughters and use them as perfumers, cooks, and bakers. He will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants. And he will take a tenth of your seed and your vineyards and give it to his high officials and his servants. He will also take your male servants and your female servants, and your best young men, and your donkeys, and use them for his work. He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his servants. Then you will cry out on that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the Lord will not answer you on that day.”
'Yet the people refused to listen to the voice of Samuel, and they said, “No, but there shall be a king over us, so that we also may be like all the nations, and our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles.” Now after Samuel had heard all the words of the people, he repeated them in the Lord’s hearing. And the Lord said to Samuel, “Listen to their voice and appoint a king for them.” So Samuel said to the men of Israel, “Go, every man to his city.”'
A king is a judge in place of God. If you are foolish enough to not want God as a judge and to be like other nations, then you will pay the price of that foolishness. I will not.
I agree, that Israel got a king because they rejected God and that human kings are corrupt. But that doesn't negate the point I was making. The verses I posted where to show that when God allows another to have authority over us we are to be obedient. This is of course subject to the moral law. You would not follow a human law to the violation of God's law.
The whole point is that authoritative hierarchies are NOT contrary to the good and to the will of God. Families being the prime example. It is specifically WANTING a human king at the top of the hierarchy in place of God that is the problem.
You can't just read Judges and ignore everything else. If you have a way to explain the points I made from the new testament, I am willing to consider it.
Why can't I point to the Nation God chose for Himself as an example and blessing to all other nations?
It isn't just Judges or Samuel or Kings. The whole of the Bible is one contiguous story of God attempting to redeem His creation.
David in the lion's den. The three brothers in the furnace. Heck, even the wild Samson. Jesus Himself.
All of those examples and more are all men and women who defied human authorities to do what is right in the eyes of God.
Show me the authority here on earth that is doing good. There is none. Therefore, I will do my best to follow Jesus as my king, even if I'm a blind, stumbling bafoon.
Let the people do what’s right in their own eyes. It always worked out pretty well before. Ohhhh wait a sec.
Literally!!!!!!
I would argue that the Catholic Church is doing good. But I will also concede scandals that obscure it and hell will fill up with those that perpetuate them. I think it is possible that you cannot see the good that Christ is doing in his Church because you hate it. You see only the evil you want to see.
I would argue that claiming God was against king David being king is some of the worst exegesis I’ve ever come across. Protestants don’t even teach that, that’s just Beave 😭
Sorry, the point I was trying to make wasn't that God is against kings, but rather the REASON the Israelites wanted a king was a rejection of God.
Your name isn’t Beave.
Yes. That is exactly my point. The desire for some human authority other than God. How does that NOT SOUND EXACTLY LIKE A POPE OR PATRIARCH?
Popery is such a horrifically illogical stance. Ugh. I love you, Dan, but please at least see the logical inconsistency of this position!
I agree that proper authority CAN exist. I will not agree that it DOES exist, ESPECIALLY not in the Catholic Church as a whole.
I am still working on your NT examples. I am not ignoring them. My work schedule sucks for having a contiguous discussion.
I will answer you with this question:
Who is my king?
I have no king but Christ.
You are missing the point that Kings were (and I suppose are) primarily judges for those to whom they are in authority over.
Precisely who is the king of the US? The President? No. Who is the king of the State of Maine where I currently reside? Who is the king of the town where I live?
I'll also point out that throughout the whole of the Bible, there are many examples of those who defied authority because those ego wielded that authority were ordering them to do something against The Law, which is a much higher authority than any earthly or even unearthly ruler. Do you think Stephen should have not given his testimony even though it led to him being stoned? Do you think Jesus should have not flipped tables and literally whipped those desecrating His Father's temple? What of Paul who was imprisoned for preaching subversion?
Yes, be subject to authority. But whose authority? What do they aim to do? Are your taxes going to good governance or to murdering innocents? (War, abortion, euthanasia, etc.)
I reject human authority. If you think that's daft, fine, but please show me to whom I'm supposed to subject myself.
I don't think it daft. I think it is half the picture.
"I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other God beside me." Are about the greatest words in any language. It makes us invunerable to all kinds of silly or evil movements and trends.
The two sides of the coin are how you reconcile "Christ is king." With "Submit to those in authority over you." It is actually quite easy. Christ delegates authority to his church and we submit ourselves to it in turn.
The state, in turn, is valid if it submits itself to Christ and to his Church. All throughout the Old testament God promises the restoration of the Davidic Kingdom. At no point does He promise a return to the time of Judges.
The mistake that the Jews made was in thinking that it was going to just go back to the way it was. A human king and Kingdom. But God had other plans. He did give us a human king, but it was himself. But now if we have a king we need a Kingdom. He delegates his authority to his ministers.
Look at Matthew 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom.."
That is a king handing authority to his representative.
You can complain about his choice but you cannot deny that he did it. He gave Simon a new name just like he did for Abraham and Israel when he confirmed that they would be Fathers of his nation. He gave him his authority.
The part you miss about Catholics is that we don't remotely think of the Pope as a king. He is the successor of Peter, the chief Steward of the king. The other bishops are in a similar position. This is why the Orthodox still have some authority. But the rock is Peter and those bishops that remain with him have a unique position in the kingdom.
That is how God guaranteed that we would be able to find the appropriate authorities to submit to. You can claim to follow Christ alone, but to reject the Kingdom is to reject the King.
the problem with this statist interpretation is that Jesus defines who his church is, not humans.
if we were not supposed to fight tyranny as christians then what was that whole story about jesus? i mean, idk have you read the story of Abraham in Genesis? he kept on fighting against the idolatry his parents were engaged in, he destroyed his father's room full of idols, and being an awesome smartass, pointed at the one he left standing and said "it was him, look at the tool in his hands"
the king's words were pretty clear and his deeds even clearer
samuel, samson, job, daniel, noah, the list goes on and on of the patriarchs of the Church who opposed corruption, and in many cases, corruption within the earthy congregation
and the modern stories such as the woman who threw her chair at the priest over the church leaders obeying the king's mandate to see him as the king is another example
the modern papacy is a corrupt organisation with leaders now who are literally whitewashing the crimes of the abuser priests among them, which means their real king is not the same one who hung on the cross
The Abuse scandal and other crimes are Millstone material. Better for them to be cast into the sea than to lead people from God. But in spite of evil leaders, God's promises, God's kingdom, and God's people remain. Just like I. The Old testament, no matter how the Israelites sinned, including idolatry, God maintained His end of the bargain. He never took his covenant from them.
Likewise he literally and plainly gave his New Covenant to his church. That they have at times done badly does not remove the promises. He cannot withdraw them. He is the King! It is his Kingdom, He can punish his own but he won't renounce it.
We are the church, the ecclesia, the assembly of believers, NOT "The Catholic Church." The arrogance of that name pisses me off.
Any organization that hides child abuse needs to be ripped out at the root and burned, nevermore to let evil fester in dark corners, or even in the wider halls of the institution.
I want to contrast what Jesus said to Peter vs. what God said to Abraham and others.
Jesus gave PETER the keys to the kingdom. To my knowledge, He NEVER stated that there would ever be anyone else to receive those keys, so it is exceedingly dumb to try to turn that into some kind of patrilineal thing that was never stated. God was explicitly clear about Abraham being the father of many nations, so if God wanted a "poppa" for His Church, he would have said so. The entirety of the office of the Pope is a falsehood. Point blank. Full stop. Do not pass go, and in many cases hopefully go straight to jail.
There is NOTHING in scripture that points to ANYTHING resembling modern Christian Denominations and paid clergy (though the Levite priests can be seen as a mostly comparable facsimile of that, but . . . ARE NOT NEEDED NOW THAT WE CAN INTERACT WITH GO THROUGH THE GRACE OF JESUS' DEATH AND RESURRECTION!)
Back to the point of Peter . . .
He's doing his thing with Jesus in the heavenly realm. He is not here. Therefore, the keys to the kingdom are NOT HERE since Jesus hasn't returned yet to establish his kingdom. Nothing in the New Testament (again, to my knowledge) points to any divinely appointed successorship of that position. The concept of the pope is a human political thing that is NOT the preference of God. (IMO)
So . . . back to human authority: I submit myself all the time. I listen to my supervisors at work. I tend to obey most traffic laws. I don't steal. I do not initiate violence without very good reason. I will not bear false witness, etc.
But . . . show me what government on this planet is aligned with Christ, in fruit that is plainly visible. Sure, God will harmonize everything to His Will as only he can, but, that is not the same thing as if there was a kingdom here that was subordinate to Christ as king from top to bottom. IMO, the only way that it is possible for that to exist is for each man to build that in his own home/family/tribe. That would be more appropriate and much more devastating to all of the Evil in the world.
To sum up: I see no proper human authority to which I must submit myself. The whole foundation of the Catholic Church is based on statecraft, not God's Word. I've yet to see anything good from the upper echelons of the Catholic Church even if some local parishes do good for their communities. This whole concept is wrong, and is holding back God's goodness, mercy, and love, which is contemptible to me.
When Jesus died on the cross, the curtain before the Holy of Holies was torn in two, from the top to bottom, by God. He removed the separation between the common people and Himself. He said it was no longer necessary to go through a priest to approach God. We have direct access. Sadly the Catholic church leadership has slowly been rebuilding that separation from God.
Like so many human organizations, the people who seek leadership tend to not be those who believe in the mission of the organization, but those who seek power. Slowly, over time, the Bishop of Rome took onto himself the authority of Pope,. and relatively recently (forget the dates because I'm terrible with dates) took on ultimate authority for himself. The corruption in Rome is massive and many (most?) of the leaders push unbiblical principles and even focus more on cultural/political subjects than on biblical ones.
I do know lots of wonderful Catholic Christians who believe the Bible and worship Jesus/God/Spirit faithfully, but based on their actions, I truly do not believe that many of the leaders of the Catholic Church are Christians at all. For their sake, I hope I am wrong.
The Catholic Church doesn’t teach that though. This is what Protestants tell each other about Catholics but that’s due to their own ignorance. Catholicism both Roman Catholicism and orthodox Catholicism (Protestants are, again, too ignorant to know the differences between Catholicisms) has always and continues to teach primacy of conscience over papal supremacy. Always. This has been reaffirmed by every pope in my lifetime too.
“Over the pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority, there still stands one's own conscience, which must be obeyed before all else, if necessary even against the requirement of ecclesiastical authority"
- Pope Benedict XVI
Protestants are either too stupid to comprehend this or they simply aren’t interested in being honest. 🤷🏼♀️
I am certainly too stupid to see how all the hoop-jumping to proclaim the "rightly proper catholic church" is MY church, when it certainly ISN'T.
Also, I am definitely NOT a protestant anymore, even if I was raised mostly baptist with a bunch of Lutheran thrown in. NONE of these denominations are at all correct, right, or proper, ESPECIALLY "The Catholic Church." Yes, I am picking on catholics for being so dang obstinate about one form of human authority which was NOT established by any explicit Word from God. It was a political move to CONTROL the faithful. This has all the hallmarks of the same divide and conquer tactics employed by "The Enemy" (in quotes as that is itself a complicated topic that nearly no one in Christendom these days is capable of bothering to understand, sadly) to subvert the natural power of God's people.
So, as a non-denominational, anti-Catholic Christian, I REJECT ALL HUMAN AUTHORITY OVER ME, unless they are themselves a humble brother or sister in Christ who bears the fruit of the spirit plainly visible in their life. This excludes nearly everyone these days, which is truly sad. I will not bend a knee to politicians, inside the church or without.
Your lame attempts to shame Protestants for not understanding the wisdom of The Catholics is, quite frankly, pathetic. I don't appreciate being lumped in that way, as I hold beliefs that are, these days, considered heretical, even if they are very rooted in The Bible, which I will hold as a higher authority on what is and what should be and what shall be than any other human.