Nostr Web Client

Yeah, but this is the same argument of futility that is used against moralists of any religion. Sure YOU will follow your God's rules but, at least a few people won't.

Yes, but *I* won't and that's all that matters to me. Even if 99.9999% of other people steal, I won't because I have my own morality.

then get consensus to change consensus rules instead of virtue signalling

It's not my place to tell others what to do with their machines either. That's the beauty of anarchy. I do what I want, and you do you.

your filters don't work and the tx will end up in the block regardless, its literally virtue signalling. it has no technical merit, it's not even an effective protest.

I don't think you understand my position. Is it virtue signaling if a mafia member walks up to me and tells me to pass a package full of bribes to the guy standing next to me? Especially if I refuse and he just hands it to the next guy who gladly does it for him?

I. DONT. WANT. TO. BE. INVOLVED.

That is my point. I will not be a relay point for things I don't approve of. I don't care if you do.

you are involved, you relay the block the tx is in

Curtis 4mo ago

Not sure if that's a fair point, because at that point nostr:nprofile1qqsd68ua2qk8j5wlgl503mfyt69l5f8haqkz3uvnnx50pe6tqcgn5ggpz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduq32amnwvaz7tmwdaehgun9d35hgetn9ehhyecpzemhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuurjd9kkzmpwdejhgpjw3m8 doesn't have a choice, aside from forking bitcoin entirely.

right, which is why I call it virtue signalling. you can't stop other people from sending consensus valid transactions full stop.

best we can do is discourage abuse of the network. and filters are not effective at that, and create other bad side effects like pushing people to non-p2p relay which harms the censorship resistance of the network.

I feel like the use of Virtue signaling implies that I am trying to send a signal by my actions, when I am just acting. Throwing a ball is not a signal that others should also throw balls.

Curtis 4mo ago

I think it could only really be reasonably construed as virtue signalling if the person is actively trying to be part of a tribe, that being the supposedly virtuous one. If they are mostly keeping to themselves then it can't be virtue signalling.

If people are choosing to bypass nodes and rely on non-p2p relay, would that not represent a cost?

Asking out of curiosity, not because I have much of a dog in this fight.

Lol, a block with mined trasactions and an unconfirmed transaction are not the same thing.

In my previous analogy if someone tells me "Hey those bribes got delivered"

and someone asks me: "did those bribes get delivered?"

I would still say yes, because I am not a liar either.

Also, I am not protesting that others follow my moral code. I just am not going to do the thing, and no one can make me do it.

Kajoozie Maflingo 4mo ago

The UASF was also virtue signaling.

not really, it actually had a useful purpose.

Kajoozie Maflingo 4mo ago

Clearly virtue signaling itself is useful when it comes to decentralized protocols.

Mempools are a mistake.

which one

All of them. It assumes altruism from node operators. Tragedy of the commons.

How do you categorize mempools?

thats just my bad mempool dad joke 😆

Gotta love the nuance of text as a communication medium. 🙃

Alternative? I mean without a central authority, a decentralized pool of transaction propagation seems like the only way of sending that data without a 3rd party network.

Direct to miner submissions.

That works but most miners just pull from the network, what is the benefit of using side-channeled txns?

I don't have to deal with using my badnwidth on behalf of others.

To borrow from Will's argument you already do when the transactions you don't propagate are confirmed.

I am not against side-channels I just don't know what happens if a company pays a premium to a miner for inclusion and another miner snags it from propagation (because why just bet on one horse). Do they get a fee refund or is that a cost of doing business?

Direct to miner solutions prevent those tx's from being gossiped to avoid this.

How would you prevent it? If company A pays MARA to mine a certain txn, then Company A also broadcasts the txn, what would hinder that?

Company A is incentivized to broadcast as well as work directly with MARA. Then MARA would be on the hook for an invalid txn included in the block. But if MARA wins the race, Company A still gets included.

RTFM for slipstream.

Lol, I literally just did, there is no carve out for broadcasting the transaction as well as using their service. So, I mean what are you referring to exactly.

It pays 2x fees at a given time and is primarily for non-standard transactions with guarenteed block time within a day. Relaying those don't happen because policy. Someone could submit to another miner and nothing stops them but right now there aren't many offering slipstream like services.

Sure but, that is just more confirmation that even if other miners DON'T relay those kind of transactions, you still CAN broadcast it.

Broadcasting into the ether is great. Relay policy makes great ether.

andrewtoth 4mo ago

This doesn't work if we want mining to be decentralized and permissionless. Unfortunately it works today because there are so few mining pools.

Correct. But the incentive is there and yet to be fully exercised.

Reducing the economically viable scale of mining ops is the key. Waiting some halvings may help but we need better market making tools for hashrate in the meantime.

This is why i'm interested in working on ehash pools.

/dev/fd0 4mo ago

💯

Big Barry Bitcoin 4mo ago

What is the alternative?

Direct to miner.

Big Barry Bitcoin 4mo ago

I disagree. There is no incentive for miners to share their transactions.

I imagine it would very quickly evolve to at least having proxy services that forwards your transaction to many miners, but ultimately this is a pretty drastic change with unforeseeable consequences.

Exactly so miners would want you to send them directly so they cab have the juiciest blocks.

modulo 4mo ago

Couldn’t agree more

Big Barry Bitcoin 4mo ago

Why/how do nodes with no fee restrictions find each other?