Black holes are primarily based on the principles of quantum mechanics, making it challenging to describe them without the use of quantum mechanics due to the failure of most of our laws of physics in that region. You know that right?
Discussion
Are you an expert on Black Holes?
No I am just a student I just read lot of Stephen hawkings
By the way it was very nice to have this conversation. 🌸
See: The black hole information paradox.
I think it's about combining general relativity & quantum mechanics right? I will definitely take a deep look into it. Thanks
No, it’s not. It’s more of looking for answers. It was nice hearing your opinions too 🫂
QM and GR are the two most successful theories of physics that we have. Both are responsible for predictions that agree down to many, many decimal places.
And yet the two theories are utterly incompatible. GR presumes that space is continuous, and QM suggests that space, time, mass, etc are quantized. Or to say this differently (and not really accurately), GR is the domain or real numbers. QM is the domain of integers.
Because of this incompatibility there are predictions made by QM that differ from GR by over 100 orders of magnitude. This is very embarassing.
>From: iefan1<-cameri at 02/20/23 07:58:05 on wss://relay.damus.io
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>I think it's about combining general relativity & quantum mechanics right? I will definitely take a deep look into it. Thanks
The Black Hole information paradox comes in many forms.
1. QM says that information cannot be destroyed; but information entering a black hole can never come out so it is effectively destroyed from our point of view.
2. General relativity says that nothing can ever be seen to actually enter a black hole. Time slows down, relative to us, as objects approach the event horizon. Time stops (relative to us) AT the event horizon. So, according to GR, no information ever actually enters the black hole.
As an aside, the matter that we see moving closer and closer, but never entering, the event horizon is massive, and cannot move at the speed of light. This matter is not the "spin" of the black hole itself.
Of course all this makes my head hurt.
>From: Raishma<-JackDorsey at 02/20/23 07:54:04 on wss://relay.damus.io
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>See: The black hole information paradox.
I think you need to reread my initial statement, bc you may have missed the point.
Sorry I didn't mean that. 🍀
It is not accurate to say black holes are primarily based on QM, they can be described just fine using relativity up until the singularity. Of course QM is used to describe many properties of black holes but to say they are primarily based on QM is wrong, especially since we don't even know how singularities work quantum mechanically.
I never thought I will be in this situation ever 😅, anyways.
"Up until Singularity" isn't the singularity literally a primary part of black hole. In fact it one of the most defining characteristics of black hole.
My argument is "you can't explain black hole with quantum physics. 🤌
I also got some help this time.
sure but its not the only thing, lots of interesting physics at the event horizon too. The point was that it is very much a relativistic beast as it is quantum mechanical. Thats why its so interesting study, to find a way to eventually combine these two ways of looking at the universe! Reading up on theoretical black hole physics is definitely one of my favourite hobbies 😅 AMPS paradox was wild.
I’m only part way through but this episode was a fun one https://fountain.fm/episode/13472749167
There’s a black hole episode on lex Friedman podcast recently. Might like it.
Check out PBS Space Time’s YouTube channel as well! They have a ton of great videos on all the topics discussed here. One of my favorite science channels. 🪐
👀
I've been doing more actual studying of physics lately, the topic is so insanely deep, love it. The math is so insanely elegant, I almost get the sense the universe was created by a genius mathematician. or it just sprang from nothingness, which is just bizarre when looking at the equations.
My wife loves physics and has been trying to find good online lessons of classes. How are you going about the studying?
First thing to do is *learn the language* physicist speak a different language and once you learn that it makes it way easier to process physics information. Things that helped were:
- learning about symmetry groups and the terms they use there (SU(2), etc). woit has a good textbook on this
- learning all the terminology and the underling linear algebra in quantum mechanics helped a lot (bra-ket, density matrices, etc). I had a lot of fun with "quantum computer science" by mermin.
Use chatgpt to relate concepts but don't overrely on this because it can give you wrong answers
In general my method of learning might be strange, I just dive wikipedia and try to learn as much as the vocabulary as possible, and explore through things i find interesting and start learning all the language there first. Then once I'm confident that i at least know what they are talking about I'll start watching video lectures and books (lenny susskind, richard feynman, etc). Physics is vast so its best to find a spot you find interesting and try to learn as much in that area as you can.
Dunno if that helped 😅
My curiosity to understand the world better takes me back to physics every time. Took a screenshot for my next google/YouTube session
ChatGPT could be a disaster sometimes, only for the reason that recently, space science has been accelerating & so many new discoveries are being made every day… it’s hard to catch up with them! Especially the breakthroughs in nuclear fusion… I mean wow! ⭐️🌟💫 Now, the great debates on the use of AI in space craft as well.
Love it!!! I'll share your approach with her and I'm sure she'll really appreciate you taking the time to provide some guidance.
I believe that mathematics is an essential aspect of learning about universe, which people often overlook while learning from podcasts & LLMs. Although learning from LLM & podcasts is better than not learning at all, people tend to repeat what they have heard without understanding the underlying fundamentals.
While large language models can answer simple questions, for more complex ones, we have to learn fundamentals to even understand those answers.
Pura vidaaa, I'm using Tarzan language 👏
coursera.org is where I take most of my classes. They’re very specified, but when I started out, I began with basic courses of the Solar System & Galaxies - that will help her! Also, if that’s too much work, she can start to read some Carl Sagan! 🫂💫
Carl Sagan was easily one of the top 5 communicators of all time.
This clip where he explains why we can believe in the 4th dimension only using paper and an apple is pure genius.
One of my first professors was a trained NASA astronaut & used pizza analogies for every. single. class. lol
Great teachers live with us forever.
The coolest analogy was explaining the aphelion, perihelion: one of my favorite words to use - “exoplanet,” the list goes on lol
I recommend reading The Order of Time by Carlo Rovelli. Not specific to black holes, but he is an Italian theoretical physicist. His is work is mainly in the field of quantum gravity, where he is among the founders of the loop quantum gravity theory. The book is the most poetic and elegant physics book I have ever read.
When you begin to get deep into the math, it’s like learning about the Universe all over again.
I too believe (atm) that the Universe may have sprung from nothingness & could end in nothingness, but nothingness is everything & infinite 🤔
I personaly believe in an pulsating universe. Expand. Pull together. Expand. Pull together. As everything that exists originates from waves. Pulsating hearts. Beams of light or sound waves. 🌊
Moving parts of an atom and so on …
Wow… that’s such a cool believe.
😊 magnitude
I often wonder if consciousness could be the fundamental feature of the universe & the fundamental feature of reality. What if consciousness existed first and then integrated with matter? It thought, and therefore it became?
Uhh that is a nice idea 💡
Veerrrryyyy possible. A great way for the human mind to understand. Trying to understand the origins of the Universe is a crawl… that’s a good way to process it.
Idk if it will ever be possible. If humans are just one „symptom“ of the universe, it would be similar to the cell of a body to try to understand what a human being is
Speaking of waves: H20 as a molecule is extraordinary bc is it the sole reason for life. It is the origin of many unanswered questions & mysteries. Imagining a sea of molecules that press against one another & move around compressed, elegantly, in all different directions, lawlessly, is counter to what we imagine in a stretched out, vibrating universe. One element seen in all stars: hydrogen, in their unending warfare against death, could have a variation & create the chance of life…
If i remember correctly H2O is also one of the first elements ever formed… most other elements come from stars
…yes, this thread was a physics-heavy thread w/o the discussion of the biology that makes up the Universe.
H2O is not an element, it is a compound. ;-)
The first elements formed were Hydrogen, Helium, and Lithium as the early universe expended through temperatures and densities that were roughtly equivalent to the core of a star. The other elements had to wait a few million years for stars to form and start fusing Hydrogen into Helium, and then into Carbon and Oxygen in their cores. Then those stars had to explode as supernovae in order to spread those elements far and wide. Once those elements cooled gravity gradually drew them together and they formed clouds. And then molecules like water could form.
Ah yes, i meant hydrogen 😅 sry, not a physicist here
When I referred to H2O, it was in the context of water on Earth & if there is no water on a planet, there is no life form.
I did also refer to Hydrogen 1 as an element & H2O/water as a molecule - both accurate descriptions.
Nice explanation on the early formation of stars ⭐️
There is a reason why Hydrogen is the 1st element on the periodic table.
just the fact that there are so many quantum fields and they interact with each other in intricate and probabilistic ways, makes me think we are inside of a larger machine and we are only seeing a slice of it. It’s like flatlanders trying to understand why they see lines appear and disappear as a cube passes through their plane. We’ll probably never know the full extent of the universe, in the same sense as our far descendents who may never know the extent of the observable universe we know today once all the galaxies disappear, assuming this information isn’t able to survive for 300 billion years.
This falls into play with the theory that every element within the Universe is aware of one another ex., every proton is self-aware & connected & on an energy flow that is in sync.
Yes, a ‘Universal Consciousness’ if you will.
I am not much into these theories, conciousness seems like a very complex emergent phenomenon and I don’t see how it could relate to fundamental physics at all.
I know that Anna is a believer in consciousness/possible simulation;
What I meant was in Kinematics, for ex., kinetic energy is connected, in sync, magnetic, growing, expanding, rotating, attracted, zapping, part of a greater electrical pulse, if you will.
I would consider myself “interested in” the consciousness possibility because it would provide more meaning to life. I am, however, comfortable with the more nihilistic perspective as well.
One word: GAMMA RAY BURST
The energy awareness between stars that can either create super galaxies or gamma ray bursts.
>From: Raishma<-JackDorsey at 02/20/23 09:57:31 on wss://relay.damus.io
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>One word: GAMMA RAY BURST
That's three words. ;-)
GRBs are (we think) the product of several different very high energy events. Black hole mergers. Neutron star mergers. Core collapse supernovae that form black holes. Pair instability supernovae (hypernovae) etc.
Each of these events is fascinating to study individually.
Yes 😅 I was in the heat of excitement & gamma ray burst sounded like one word in my head, in the moment, so I quickly corrected myself. I meant to say “one explanation,”
It is fascinating. I love to study space explosions.
I’m going to respond to your posts more once I get to a computer. Thank you for your contributions & display of knowledge in astrophysics.
lol sorry, in my head it sounded like one word, but it was three 😂 🚀 🔥
It probably relates in some way but like you were saying earlier in the thread, it’s probably so complex that we can never fully understand all the intricacies
The magnetism between stars or galaxies that draw them in to collide into a super galaxy or pierce space time with a gamma ray burst.
My study of Energy is coming out now 😂🤣 I am glad that it was not all in vain…
Magnetism 🧲
“Form is emptiness, emptiness is form”
The convergence between quantum physics and the wisdom that ancient sages found in deep meditation never ceases to awe me ✨💜
It’s interesting how every electron is exactly the same as any other electron anywhere in the universe. As if it’s the same particle just everywhere in space at the same time.
Copy - pasta job no doubt
Exactly true 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
Yes. I must confess, atm, I see all objects in the universe as a dance of magnets with a teeny, tiny, atom in the center - that all came from the same origin… with the occasional blip & interference called a Black Hole & the Universe’s fight of immortality winning hard.
think about this, until a color is named and teach like so by whom named it, other members of the same community have no idea how to express the color they have infront of them…..
🎯 we are but conscious clever flatlanders in a higher dimensional system https://youtu.be/0ca4miMMaCE
How do we explain where we got the math to do the physics to explain the creation?
Does the math that explains creation feel like fitting something to form the outcome.
#[8]
It was, and His name is Allah.
Went to see a talk by Kip Thorne on the gravitational wave discovery back in 2017. Haven’t thought much about this stuff since and this podcast was a fun reintro.
Completely Agree, star to black hole has many stage most of them can explained with general Physics but at infinity density & zero volume quantum mechanics takes over specially in context of antimatter, it is in itself a concept of quantum physics.
& yes only just a the thought of combining QM with GM is fascinating. It’s may actually answers the existence of our universe.
Wow what interesting conversation by the way you both are right
General physics and quantum physics both are essential to understand the black hole properly but antimatters they are definitely concept of quantum physics.
As I recall from my studies, we are not sure that singularities exist because we don't really know what happens inside the event horizon. There _may_ be a singularity there; but there may not. We just don't know.
Black holes are primarily objects defined by General Relativity (i.e. gravity). QM comes into play once you get very, very close to the event horizon. Beyone the event horizon we are blind so we don't know what really happens in there.
Very near the event horizon we believe that QM effects cause the black hole to radiate and evaporate. We don't know that they do this; we've never seen any of the so-called Hawking radiation coming from a black hole. But our math says this should be happening.
If that is true then the ultimate fate of a black hole is dominated by QM, it will gradually evaporate until it has radiated all it's mass back out into the universe. However, in time-frames of a few billion years this effect is so negligible as to be irrelevant.
It's fun😅
So, "Primarily" depends on what aspect you're defining.
The laws of gravity and matter govern the formation and some behavior of black holes, except objects with near Schwarzschild radius, we all know that.
but the creation of antimatter inside a black hole is a quantum mechanical phenomenon that cannot be explained solely by the laws of classical physics. That is the whole context here. If you read the first note.
QM governs the production of virtual particle-antiparticle pairs near the event horizon, which leads to the formation of Hawking radiation and the eventual evaporation of black holes.
Last any object collapsing near Schwarzschild radius is primarily governed by QM, that is one of main characteristics of black hole. Isn't it.
Am I missing something here😂, correct me a if I'm wrong
>From: iefan1<-cameri at 02/20/23 12:20:12 on wss://relay.damus.io
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>It's fun😅
Absolutely!
>The laws of gravity and matter govern the formation and some behavior of black holes, except objects with near Schwarzschild radius, we all know that.
True; but you have to get very close indeed (10^-16cm or so) for QM to become a factor.
>but the creation of antimatter inside a black hole is a quantum mechanical phenomenon that cannot be explained solely by the laws of classical physics. That is the whole context here. If you read the first note.
We don't really know if antimatter gets "created" within the EH. The GR math suggests a space-time reversal within the EH, and QM sees an anti-particle as the normal particle moving backwards in time. SO...???
>QM governs the production of virtual particle-antiparticle pairs near the event horizon, which leads to the formation of Hawking radiation and the eventual evaporation of black holes.
Well, sort of. The virtual particle story is one that physicists like to tell laymen to describe HR. The reality is a bit stranger and has to do with the way the EH distorts the quantum fields. PBS Spacetime did a good episode on this. It's fun and very educational: https://www.pbs.org/video/hawking-radiation-joztzy/
>Last any object collapsing near Schwarzschild radius is primarily governed by QM, that is one of main characteristics of black hole. Isn't it.
From the point of view of a distant observer, GR dominates the behavior of objects in the vicinity of a BH. Very, very near the EH QM effect might become important; but our theories of GR and QM disagree too much for us to be able to predict much about it. As the PBS episode said, even HR is based on a hack.
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>Am I missing something here😂, correct me a if I'm wrong
I'm sure we are both wrong; but it's still fun.
Those are fair points. While we may not agree on everything, particularly regarding the overall role of quantum mechanics in black holes and antimatter as a whole but at the end of the day that's the beauty of science. It's fascinating how our brains were not designed to fully comprehend the universe that make these conversations more interesting. In any case, I enjoyed our conversation. I’m following you to have more discussions like this in future.