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Actually, i don't understand the hype around Monero, considering that everything in Bitcoin's code can potentially enable a second layer that's anonymous and secure, such as the Lightning Network.

Bitcoin's robust and transparent nature, combined with developments like Lightning, offers significant privacy enhancements without the need for an entirely separate cryptocurrency like Monero. Also, preferring Monero because it only requires one layer compared to Bitcoin's three (on-chain, Liquid, and Lightning) is like saying Firefox is better than Tor because it has three or more bridges to choose from.

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Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Theory VS practice. Almost no one uses lightning privately. Wallet of Satoshi gives you no privacy.

How to be moderately private with Lightning:

1. never receive

2. don't announce channels

3. open channels with coins you mixed beforehand

4. open channels directly with only people you trust

5. use Tor to hide your IP from other nodes

6. use your own LN node

Liquid doesn't hide sender or receiver and anon set is virtually zero

Ecash is custodial

Coinjoins are weaker obfuscation. They don't actually hide amounts and addresses involved like Monero does.

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𝑻𝒉𝒆 𝑫𝒂𝒓𝒌 𝑴𝒆𝒕𝒆𝒐𝒓 𝑭𝒓𝒐𝒎 𝑨𝒏𝒅𝒓𝒐𝒎𝒆𝒅𝒂³🌌☄️ 1y ago

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- - "Theory vs Practice"

Monero does not have the properties of a perfect money, there is no solid, transparent and fixed monetary base. Inflation (Increasing the monetary base) should not exist in a currency, divisibility is the solution, not perpetual and decreasing inflation.

Inflation does not make sense in a society that tends to increase wealth, this is destruction of monetary energy. Money is life time, it should not be printed, losing value and given to others. Bitcoin's rewards by mining the

Good luck with scaling, checking transaction history, bugs, and ensuring there is no unknown or artificially created inflation. An exposed and transparent base layer is necessary, and smaller, scrambled, anonymous transactions can build on this base, but not vice versa.

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Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Lol

You said you don't understand the hype around Monero, so I explained all the problems with the "privacy layers" you listed off (which you didn't contest)

Nothing more, nothing less

But if you want we can go in circles and theorize about "perfect money" and go off-topic if you want...

I don't think a non-fungible money would qualify as "perfect" (I'm not claiming Monero is perfect, but you are claiming Bitcoin is)

Gold was civilizations money for several millennia and has more in common with Monero than Bitcoin (private, fungible, small amount of inflation, opaque circulating supply). People still prefer gold over Bitcoin.

Lightning can't even scale right now without 100+ MB blocks...on-chain Bitcoin doesn't stand a chance. If Bitcoin has time to figure it out, with it's higher popularity, then so does Monero.

Monero isn't just "scrambled". Amounts and addresses are completely hidden. Search the address on my profile on any Monero blockchain explorer and let me know any amounts or addresses for transactions I've ever made. Meanwhile Wallet of Satoshi knows everything about your transaction history and can rug you at any moment. The entire world can see your on-chain Bitcoin transactions no matter how many times you coinjoin. But no third party has access to my Monero transaction history.

Good luck with your expensive NFT surveillance chain and targeted miner censorship

𝑻𝒉𝒆 𝑫𝒂𝒓𝒌 𝑴𝒆𝒕𝒆𝒐𝒓 𝑭𝒓𝒐𝒎 𝑨𝒏𝒅𝒓𝒐𝒎𝒆𝒅𝒂³🌌☄️ 1y ago

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Bitcoin’s transparency ensures trust and verifiability, while Monero’s opacity is closer to an NFT. Gold? Easily confiscated, try moving a truckload without getting robbed.

The real issue isn’t privacy, it’s a store of value, the greatest problem humanity faces. Bitcoin, with its fixed supply and decentralization, is the ultimate hard money. Monero’s privacy features? Neat, but they miss the mark. Bitcoin’s public ledger provides pseudonymity, transparent yet owner-concealed. The Lightning Network only enhances this privacy.

You’re chasing shadows with privacy coins. Bitcoin’s decade-long resilience and unmatched security make it the undisputed digital currency king. Finally, we've created a technology to maintain the value of money over millennia, and you’re betting on a naturally inflationary coin. You’re the one gambling on an NFT, not me.

Gold never was a perfect money, but it served well for so much time. Once they discover large deposits or start asteroid mining for gold, you'll watch your gold's value drop, just like Monero's inflation erodes its value. And good luck verifying if your money's drop is due to market price, a bug, or inflation.

You chose pure privacy and you got it, you'll never know what happened to your money. Have a chat with Monero’s creator when he shakes hands with a politician for the “greater good,” just like the creator of Ethereum did. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

While you’re busy trying to hide your money, humanity's biggest challenge is preserving its value over decades, centuries, millennia. You’re living through one of the most important moments in history, where the value of money will finally be safeguarded for millennia. Don’t be the one who feared fire or denied electricity.

You didn't understand money, nor the problem.

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Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

I would love to see you explain how Monero is closer to an NFT than Bitcoin when every Bitcoin has a unique transaction history and Monero doesn't. Bitcoin is the original non-fungible token.

Literally all cypherpunk history disagrees with your dismissal of privacy including Hal Finney.

By putting privacy on the backburner you're less of a digital cash. Not only are you further away from ideal money (by diminishing fungibility i.e. indistinguishable coins), you are also less resistant to adversaries. You open up the possibility of targeted mining censorship and chain analysis on users both which wouldn't be possible if Bitcoin was private.

Moneros original creator is a nym just like Satoshi. It's FOSS and permissionless. So no idea what you are trying to suggest with the "shakes hands with a politician" comment

I never said gold or Monero was perfect. I just see them as tools with different trade offs. You're the only one here calling Bitcoin perfect. Which it is far from being.

Monero and gold supply issuance is predictable, decentralized, and requires PoW just like Bitcoin.

Absolute scarcity doesn't automatically guarantee anything. You have to be honest and contrast it with the full picture of downsides involved with Bitcoin. Merely having absolute scarcity doesn't guarantee value or continued value. You can control supply. You can't control fickle demand (subjective value). Both are required.

Yes, you can't confiscate Bitcoin! Except all those times it has been confiscated of course...and many instances aided by... *drum roll* ...it's lack of privacy!

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Scarcity-Fallacy

https://www.torekeland.com/roman-sterlingov/

𝑻𝒉𝒆 𝑫𝒂𝒓𝒌 𝑴𝒆𝒕𝒆𝒐𝒓 𝑭𝒓𝒐𝒎 𝑨𝒏𝒅𝒓𝒐𝒎𝒆𝒅𝒂³🌌☄️ 1y ago

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“I would love to see you explain how Monero is closer to an NFT than Bitcoin when every Bitcoin has a unique transaction history and Monero doesn't.”

Bitcoin’s unique transaction history ensures transparency and verifiability. Monero’s complete opacity aligns it more with an NFT’s non-fungibility due to its non-transparent nature.

“Literally all cypherpunk history disagrees with your dismissal of privacy including Hal Finney. By putting privacy on the backburner you're less of a digital cash.”

Privacy is important, but Bitcoin’s goal is to be a secure, decentralized store of value—the greatest problem humanity faces. Pseudonymity and the Lightning Network enhance Bitcoin’s privacy without sacrificing transparency.

“Monero's original creator is a nym just like Satoshi. It’s FOSS and permissionless. So no idea what you are trying to suggest with the ‘shakes hands with a politician’ comment.”

The point about shaking hands with politicians is about potential compromise, because no one knows who Satoshi is, but they know who the creator of Monero is, he soon becomes a target. Bitcoin's transparency prevents hidden inflation or manipulation, something Monero’s opacity cannot.

“I never said gold or Monero was perfect. I just see them as tools with different trade-offs. You're the only one here calling Bitcoin perfect. Which it is far from being.”

Bitcoin is not perfect, but it is perfect money. It solves preservation of value, and the guarantee is inflationary and infinite governments and altcoins, without preservation of value over time, just something nominal while losing purchasing power.

“Yes, you can't confiscate Bitcoin! Except all those times it has been confiscated of course...and many instances aided by... drum roll ...it's lack of privacy!”

Not your keys, not your money. If you leave Bitcoin on exchanges or on paper glued to the refrigerator, you have made your currency a Soviet currency.

“Monero and gold supply issuance is predictable, decentralized, and requires PoW just like Bitcoin.”

PoW doesn’t matter if the reward system and inflation model are flawed. An inflationary currency relying on inflation for rewards is wrong. If that’s your currency, enjoy the start of the pyramid.

Monero and NFTs: as good as real money, just like fiat currencies.

You didn’t understand money, nor the real problem.

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Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

"Bitcoin’s unique transaction history ensures transparency and verifiability. Monero’s complete opacity aligns it more with an NFT’s non-fungibility due to its non-transparent nature..."

Do you even understand what fungibility means? Because you've got it completely in reverse...

fungibility = uniformity. Bitcoin has *unique* histories (each is distinguishable from another). Each coin has a unique history BECAUSE of it's *transparency*

"Privacy is important, but Bitcoin’s goal is to be a secure, decentralized store of value..."

Show me where it says "store of value" in the white paper. Pseudonymity (weaker version of anonymity) is not the same thing as privacy. One is hiding identity, the other hides content/actions.

"The point about shaking hands with politicians is about potential compromise, because no one knows who Satoshi is, but they know who the creator of Monero is..."

No they don't. Who is Nicolas Von Saberhagen? If you don't know who Satoshi is how do you know they aren't the same person?

"Bitcoin is not perfect, but it is perfect money. It solves preservation of value, and the guarantee is inflationary ..."

"PoW doesn’t matter if the reward system and inflation model are flawed..."

Lol. I guess you still don't understand that "absolute scarcity automatically equals value" is a fallacy because you can't control demand. And you should know by now that value is subjective if you understand money like you claim.

"Not your keys, not your money. If you leave Bitcoin on exchanges..."

You can have your Bitcoin taken even if you own your own keys. $5 wrench attack. Gov can also send goons with guns to kick down your door and force you to give it up. Bitcoin doesn't automatically make it confiscation proof. It's hiding of information that does which is why privacy is so important.

Continuously stating I don't understand something doesn't make it so. Ever consider you might be the one that doesn't understand?

https://github.com/jlopp/physical-bitcoin-attacks/blob/master/README.md

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