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Actually, i don't understand the hype around Monero, considering that everything in Bitcoin's code can potentially enable a second layer that's anonymous and secure, such as the Lightning Network.

Bitcoin's robust and transparent nature, combined with developments like Lightning, offers significant privacy enhancements without the need for an entirely separate cryptocurrency like Monero. Also, preferring Monero because it only requires one layer compared to Bitcoin's three (on-chain, Liquid, and Lightning) is like saying Firefox is better than Tor because it has three or more bridges to choose from.

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Discussion

Theory VS practice. Almost no one uses lightning privately. Wallet of Satoshi gives you no privacy.

How to be moderately private with Lightning:

1. never receive

2. don't announce channels

3. open channels with coins you mixed beforehand

4. open channels directly with only people you trust

5. use Tor to hide your IP from other nodes

6. use your own LN node

Liquid doesn't hide sender or receiver and anon set is virtually zero

Ecash is custodial

Coinjoins are weaker obfuscation. They don't actually hide amounts and addresses involved like Monero does.

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- - "Theory vs Practice"

Monero does not have the properties of a perfect money, there is no solid, transparent and fixed monetary base. Inflation (Increasing the monetary base) should not exist in a currency, divisibility is the solution, not perpetual and decreasing inflation.

Inflation does not make sense in a society that tends to increase wealth, this is destruction of monetary energy. Money is life time, it should not be printed, losing value and given to others. Bitcoin's rewards by mining the

Good luck with scaling, checking transaction history, bugs, and ensuring there is no unknown or artificially created inflation. An exposed and transparent base layer is necessary, and smaller, scrambled, anonymous transactions can build on this base, but not vice versa.

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Lol

You said you don't understand the hype around Monero, so I explained all the problems with the "privacy layers" you listed off (which you didn't contest)

Nothing more, nothing less

But if you want we can go in circles and theorize about "perfect money" and go off-topic if you want...

I don't think a non-fungible money would qualify as "perfect" (I'm not claiming Monero is perfect, but you are claiming Bitcoin is)

Gold was civilizations money for several millennia and has more in common with Monero than Bitcoin (private, fungible, small amount of inflation, opaque circulating supply). People still prefer gold over Bitcoin.

Lightning can't even scale right now without 100+ MB blocks...on-chain Bitcoin doesn't stand a chance. If Bitcoin has time to figure it out, with it's higher popularity, then so does Monero.

Monero isn't just "scrambled". Amounts and addresses are completely hidden. Search the address on my profile on any Monero blockchain explorer and let me know any amounts or addresses for transactions I've ever made. Meanwhile Wallet of Satoshi knows everything about your transaction history and can rug you at any moment. The entire world can see your on-chain Bitcoin transactions no matter how many times you coinjoin. But no third party has access to my Monero transaction history.

Good luck with your expensive NFT surveillance chain and targeted miner censorship

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Bitcoin’s transparency ensures trust and verifiability, while Monero’s opacity is closer to an NFT. Gold? Easily confiscated, try moving a truckload without getting robbed.

The real issue isn’t privacy, it’s a store of value, the greatest problem humanity faces. Bitcoin, with its fixed supply and decentralization, is the ultimate hard money. Monero’s privacy features? Neat, but they miss the mark. Bitcoin’s public ledger provides pseudonymity, transparent yet owner-concealed. The Lightning Network only enhances this privacy.

You’re chasing shadows with privacy coins. Bitcoin’s decade-long resilience and unmatched security make it the undisputed digital currency king. Finally, we've created a technology to maintain the value of money over millennia, and you’re betting on a naturally inflationary coin. You’re the one gambling on an NFT, not me.

Gold never was a perfect money, but it served well for so much time. Once they discover large deposits or start asteroid mining for gold, you'll watch your gold's value drop, just like Monero's inflation erodes its value. And good luck verifying if your money's drop is due to market price, a bug, or inflation.

You chose pure privacy and you got it, you'll never know what happened to your money. Have a chat with Monero’s creator when he shakes hands with a politician for the β€œgreater good,” just like the creator of Ethereum did. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

While you’re busy trying to hide your money, humanity's biggest challenge is preserving its value over decades, centuries, millennia. You’re living through one of the most important moments in history, where the value of money will finally be safeguarded for millennia. Don’t be the one who feared fire or denied electricity.

You didn't understand money, nor the problem.

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I would love to see you explain how Monero is closer to an NFT than Bitcoin when every Bitcoin has a unique transaction history and Monero doesn't. Bitcoin is the original non-fungible token.

Literally all cypherpunk history disagrees with your dismissal of privacy including Hal Finney.

By putting privacy on the backburner you're less of a digital cash. Not only are you further away from ideal money (by diminishing fungibility i.e. indistinguishable coins), you are also less resistant to adversaries. You open up the possibility of targeted mining censorship and chain analysis on users both which wouldn't be possible if Bitcoin was private.

Moneros original creator is a nym just like Satoshi. It's FOSS and permissionless. So no idea what you are trying to suggest with the "shakes hands with a politician" comment

I never said gold or Monero was perfect. I just see them as tools with different trade offs. You're the only one here calling Bitcoin perfect. Which it is far from being.

Monero and gold supply issuance is predictable, decentralized, and requires PoW just like Bitcoin.

Absolute scarcity doesn't automatically guarantee anything. You have to be honest and contrast it with the full picture of downsides involved with Bitcoin. Merely having absolute scarcity doesn't guarantee value or continued value. You can control supply. You can't control fickle demand (subjective value). Both are required.

Yes, you can't confiscate Bitcoin! Except all those times it has been confiscated of course...and many instances aided by... *drum roll* ...it's lack of privacy!

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Scarcity-Fallacy

https://www.torekeland.com/roman-sterlingov/

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β€œI would love to see you explain how Monero is closer to an NFT than Bitcoin when every Bitcoin has a unique transaction history and Monero doesn't.”

Bitcoin’s unique transaction history ensures transparency and verifiability. Monero’s complete opacity aligns it more with an NFT’s non-fungibility due to its non-transparent nature.

β€œLiterally all cypherpunk history disagrees with your dismissal of privacy including Hal Finney. By putting privacy on the backburner you're less of a digital cash.”

Privacy is important, but Bitcoin’s goal is to be a secure, decentralized store of valueβ€”the greatest problem humanity faces. Pseudonymity and the Lightning Network enhance Bitcoin’s privacy without sacrificing transparency.

β€œMonero's original creator is a nym just like Satoshi. It’s FOSS and permissionless. So no idea what you are trying to suggest with the β€˜shakes hands with a politician’ comment.”

The point about shaking hands with politicians is about potential compromise, because no one knows who Satoshi is, but they know who the creator of Monero is, he soon becomes a target. Bitcoin's transparency prevents hidden inflation or manipulation, something Monero’s opacity cannot.

β€œI never said gold or Monero was perfect. I just see them as tools with different trade-offs. You're the only one here calling Bitcoin perfect. Which it is far from being.”

Bitcoin is not perfect, but it is perfect money. It solves preservation of value, and the guarantee is inflationary and infinite governments and altcoins, without preservation of value over time, just something nominal while losing purchasing power.

β€œYes, you can't confiscate Bitcoin! Except all those times it has been confiscated of course...and many instances aided by... drum roll ...it's lack of privacy!”

Not your keys, not your money. If you leave Bitcoin on exchanges or on paper glued to the refrigerator, you have made your currency a Soviet currency.

β€œMonero and gold supply issuance is predictable, decentralized, and requires PoW just like Bitcoin.”

PoW doesn’t matter if the reward system and inflation model are flawed. An inflationary currency relying on inflation for rewards is wrong. If that’s your currency, enjoy the start of the pyramid.

Monero and NFTs: as good as real money, just like fiat currencies.

You didn’t understand money, nor the real problem.

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"Bitcoin’s unique transaction history ensures transparency and verifiability. Monero’s complete opacity aligns it more with an NFT’s non-fungibility due to its non-transparent nature..."

Do you even understand what fungibility means? Because you've got it completely in reverse...

fungibility = uniformity. Bitcoin has *unique* histories (each is distinguishable from another). Each coin has a unique history BECAUSE of it's *transparency*

"Privacy is important, but Bitcoin’s goal is to be a secure, decentralized store of value..."

Show me where it says "store of value" in the white paper. Pseudonymity (weaker version of anonymity) is not the same thing as privacy. One is hiding identity, the other hides content/actions.

"The point about shaking hands with politicians is about potential compromise, because no one knows who Satoshi is, but they know who the creator of Monero is..."

No they don't. Who is Nicolas Von Saberhagen? If you don't know who Satoshi is how do you know they aren't the same person?

"Bitcoin is not perfect, but it is perfect money. It solves preservation of value, and the guarantee is inflationary ..."

"PoW doesn’t matter if the reward system and inflation model are flawed..."

Lol. I guess you still don't understand that "absolute scarcity automatically equals value" is a fallacy because you can't control demand. And you should know by now that value is subjective if you understand money like you claim.

"Not your keys, not your money. If you leave Bitcoin on exchanges..."

You can have your Bitcoin taken even if you own your own keys. $5 wrench attack. Gov can also send goons with guns to kick down your door and force you to give it up. Bitcoin doesn't automatically make it confiscation proof. It's hiding of information that does which is why privacy is so important.

Continuously stating I don't understand something doesn't make it so. Ever consider you might be the one that doesn't understand?

https://github.com/jlopp/physical-bitcoin-attacks/blob/master/README.md

note12acrktner7qftvhwnrnsgket3cgywk8dkrkmyfaq6rrlts2vfh5s33l9gh

An annoying guy told me that Monero is already quantum resistant and that Bitcoin has no possibility of quantum resistance via soft fork, which could force the community to start everything from scratch again.

I have my doubts about this, all the experts who talk about Bitcoin say that it would be possible to save the blockchain from quantum computing.

Among private cryptocurrencies, I think ZCash and Dash are much better than Monero because they have scheduled scarcity and Dash is even more scarce than Bitcoin.

Not to mention that the doors are closing to trading with Monero, few exchanges offer Monero and the number tends to fall. Soon people will only be able to trade p2p, maybe this will increase the value of the currency or maybe it will be their death sentence.

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The incentive to destroy Bitcoin is the same as a scammer choosing to steal 500 dollars from you and never being able to trade again because he has no confidence, instead of trading honestly and earning more in the long term.

Politicians and a lot of billionaires themselves no longer know where to store their reserves of value, they prefer to buy useless works of art and have a garage with very expensive cars to prevent losses over time. Also, Bitcoin can be upgraded to be protected against quantum computers, the incentive of protecting the best currency ever created by humanity is much greater than Monero, Solana, Ethereum, and others.

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I hope you're right.

Regarding bitcoiners, they will definitely not attack the network, only if it is as a hack to test security, but even if a bitcoiner manages to break a key or the blockchain, he would only report it and not steal funds.

But I believe that some organizations would be interested in taking down Bitcoin, because ordinary individuals will not be able to access quantum computers, only governments and multinationals.

Perhaps some government or a company competing with Bitcoin wants to sabotage it.

That's why I think they should start working on post-quantum prophecy, it doesn't seem like they're worried about it.

Many believe that hashes already protect public keys and this would be enough to resist quantum computing. But if no one can make transactions for fear of exposing the public key, it would make all bitcoins useless. Who would want a currency they couldn't use?

Possibly the solution does not involve changing the encryption itself, but if they can find a way to protect the public keys during transactions it may be enough, until they discover a way to derive the private key through signatures, I don't even know if that would be possible.

I think the public key needs to appear anyway because it is one of the criteria that miners use to approve transactions.

It seems that hiding the public key is worse.

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Tanks can be destroyed by drones. Currently, it would already take a hashrate power 100 times greater than that of Google to beat Bitcoin.

If governments, with all their inefficiency, slowness, hierarchy, misinformation and incentives for corruption, manage to create a powerful quantum hypercomputer, individuals and companies will already be steps ahead.

If there comes a time where politicians realize they need to do something against Bitcoin, it's because their power is already in the "Give up, or sink faster" phase.

It is more valuable to try to attack cryptocurrencies that are tens or hundreds of times weaker, complex and with fewer volunteers and with exposed creators like Monero and Ethereum than Bitcoin where even governments will need it to avoid succumbing to inflation itself.

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The hashrate issue is not a concern now. The hash seems unbeatable and many believe that the quantum computer cannot break SHA-256.

The problem is the Shor algorithm being used on a quantum computer to solve the elliptic curve calculation using someone's public key to discover the private key.

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The concern over Shor's algorithm potentially compromising elliptic curve cryptography (ECC) in Bitcoin is 100% valid, but it's important to note that Bitcoin's protocol is designed to adapt and evolve.

Bitcoin can undergo updates, potentially split into other currencies, like Bitcoin Cash (Where they tried to apply more size to the Blocks, and failed, security has to be simple, strong and descentralized, not complicated and with centralized decisions like Monero and Ethereum that are so much easier to destroy with quantum computers), and strengthen its security with improved cryptographic methods.

Even simple measures like increasing key bit lengths exponentially increase security. For instance, the number of possible private keys in a 256-bit system is 2^256, and the number of public key combinations is around 10^77, nearly approaching the estimated number of atoms in the observable universe (10^80).

Bitcoin's current cryptographic standards, while considered 'outdated' in the face of quantum computing, already provide formidable security for decades since the first block. As technology progresses, the potential number of private keys and addresses can expand to unimaginable scales like Googols (10^100), Centillions (10^303) or more, making targeted attacks by quantum computers increasingly impractical.

The decentralized nature of Bitcoin, with its diverse cryptographic approaches and lack of centralized targets, further complicates any singular quantum computing attack scenario.

"You underestimate Leviathan"

I underestimate Leviathan much more, it's not a galactic and omniscient entity, it's just a bunch of old people who are always 10km behind technology, in any generation and age.

You are doing what everyone has done throughout history, overestimating these people and giving them power, but you forget that 300 people can beat 1 police officer, and 11,000 people beat 1 old politician who only thinks about himself, like it is in our country.

Don't forget moments like:

- - Risks of phone radiation

- - Collapse of power grid due to cyber attacks or solar storms

- - Superintelligent and cruel A.i

- - GPS Risks due to Solar Activity

- - Conspiracy theories about 5G Technology

- - 2038 Computer Apocalypse

- - Theories about Nikola Tesla and Electromagnetic Energy Harm

And more, like Haarp controlling climate changes, etc.

When the police and military run out of money because of politicians investing trillions into taking down the currency that many of them use, there will be nothing an old idiot can do but scream at people to use Bitcoin in his country.

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I like your optimism.

Thanks for taking the time with such a complete answer.

You are very verbose when writing and you argue well.

There really are worse things for bitcoiners to worry about, from more basic things to sophisticated threats that have not yet been realized.

I just believe that overconfidence in limited, temporary things that depend on human action is dangerous. Like it or not, Bitcoin is also one of those things.

Many bonuses usually carry an equivalent burden. A robust security network like the Bitcoin network, probably the most secure in the world, is difficult and time-consuming to make changes like this. If they procrastinate, trusting in current security, there may not be time to do a soft fork and who knows what will happen if there is a hard fork suddenly. Imagine the congestion of many people wanting to transfer to new addresses and exposing their public keys with the possibility of being cloned. This is a terrible scenario.

TΓ‘ boa a conversa ein kkkkkkkkk duas mentes brilhantes discutindo o futuro do Bitcoin com pontos de vista diferentes e uma falando mal da Monero na comunidade do Monero KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK Γ‰ isso aΓ­ gente

"...but it's important to note that Bitcoin's protocol is designed to adapt and evolve...Bitcoin can undergo updates"

Tell that to the ossificationists and all those opposed to upgrading lmao

"...not complicated and with centralized decisions like Monero and Ethereum that are so much easier to destroy with quantum computers"

Number of Monero node runners is in the same ballpark as Bitcoin nodes. The code is also FOSS and network is permissionless.

Monero pedersen commitment scheme for amount privacy are "perfectly hiding" so can't be "destroyed" even with quantum computers.

You're spewing things that you obviously know nothing about.

"..like Bitcoin Cash (Where they tried to apply more size to the Blocks..."

Almost no one is going to run a node for a network that will be too expensive for them to use in the first place...

Microblocks are just as centralizing and stupid as gigablocks

The previous commenter is right to not underestimate the "leviathan".

Some bitcoiners are way too dismissive and content. Fair skies, sunshine, and rainbows...

Bitcoin is supposed to be anti-fragile designed around worst case scenarios and thinking adversarially. It's value prop rests on that. Not assuming the best conditions.

https://docs.grin.mw/wiki/miscellaneous/switch-commitments/#properties-of-commitment-schemes

https://monero.fail/map

https://bitnodes.io/

Yes, and well over 51% of Bitcoins hash is KYCed and mostly done through large centralized mining operations like Foundry and AntPool. No problem there.

Most of Moneros devs are anonymous and the creator of its protocol is anonymous too. This is simple to look up. Why are you blatantly lying?

How real is quantum computing... honestly?

It is said to be at around 1000 qubits currently.

Predictions of the evolution of quantum computing are always wrong. They imagined it would take longer to reach 1000 qubits.

Previously, keys like Bitcoin were considered secure until 2040, now they are talking about 2030, some in 2028 or less.

I don't even know if there is already a BIP for this or whether they have already started working on it or not.

Que louco isso:

"Cada chave Lamport sΓ³ pode ser usada para assinar uma ΓΊnica mensagem."

Isso significa que sΓ£o "chaves descartΓ‘veis".

A soluΓ§Γ£o:

"No entanto, muitas assinaturas Lamport podem ser tratadas por uma Γ‘rvore hash Merkle , portanto, uma ΓΊnica chave de Γ‘rvore hash pode ser usada para muitas mensagens, tornando este um esquema de assinatura digital bastante eficiente."

Nunca vi nada igual.

No dia que recebi a notificaΓ§Γ£o, eu li por cima. Tem bem mais coisa. Esses dias estou ocupado com o subemprego e outras coisas. Sem tempo para ler.

Eu vou dar uma olhada depois.

Parece ser uma boa. Isso torna tudo muito mais seguro e inviabilizaria a reutilizaΓ§Γ£o de endereΓ§os.

O que antes era um conselho, agora passarΓ‘ a virar regra.

The question is why are major exchanges being pressured to remove Monero despite its obvious popularity/weight and at the same keep flooding those same exchange with vapid casino coins that have zero value on real world actions.

We won't accept transparent virtual coins. After you've tasted privacy, you won't see in good eyes those government-accepted casino coins.

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The only exchange I know of that still sells private coins is NovaDax.

Monero, Dash, Zcash are in the catalog. I don't know if there are others or how long they will still be available.

For the average user, it is terrible to need to get rid of a currency and not have the traditional means to sell it. P2p is not that simple.

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Would say one of the most popular exchanges for getting private coins is TradeOgre.

In either case this should move away from centralized exchanges.

P2P indeed needs to be simplified and decentralized. That is the ideal path for privacy.