Nostr Web Client

HI've noticed on Threads, Bluesky, and even some apps here on Nostr that I’m shown a lot more content from people I’m not following. This is often due to reposts, quote posts, or just the algorithms at work. While this content can be engaging and spark conversations, it’s often not healthy.

I see people posting obviously or maybe obliviously wrong things, which then get corrected and boosted, creating a vicious cycle. For example, someone mentioned considering a hyphenated name for their kids. I shared how my hyphenated name caused issues with computers, especially with international travel. This led to many calling me a bigot because the original poster was a queer woman. It’s odd because I’m queer myself, but it seems they felt an amab queer shouldn’t share personal experiences directly related to the topic.

I also saw clickbait articles about triathletes vomiting at the end of an Olympic triathlon, blaming it on a polluted river. Yes, the river is polluted, but triathletes often throw up at the end of races, and the swim was two hours before the nausea hit.

These issues occurred on Twitter too, but I didn’t experience it the same way there. I used Twitter daily from the moment Jack invited me and our coworkers onto the service, and for me, the conversations were healthier. I understand that many others had negative experiences, though.

On Nostr, I see zaps often rewarding hot takes and posts that signal membership in one group or another. This seems to exacerbate the issue, as people are incentivized to make posts that cater to specific in-groups rather than fostering genuine dialogue.

My worry is that maybe we’re actually doing worse with the new platforms. Is this something other people are seeing? How do we navigate this and foster healthier online conversations?

Buckleys 1y ago

Zaps can be as much a signal as they can be noise.

There’s not much we can do to control the conversation aside from honesty and integrity. Especially on open platforms. The truth will speak for itself. Zaps won’t censor you.

In an open medium where anyone can say anything, you can definitely expect adversity and people falling into the opposite opinion of yours. This isn’t something to shy away from. It should rather be encouraged.

I don’t look at the amount of zaps a note receives to deem its worth. That’s just me. I don’t care who it is. If they say something I like I’ll zap it and back it up. If they say something I don’t, I’ll ignore or call it out depending on whether it’s a subject that is a priority for me.

If it’s something I don’t have an opinion on I’ll either dive deeper or move on with my life.

Open mediums mean we as individuals need to make decisions on what is worth our time, and worth fighting about.

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Discussion

rabble 1y ago

My frustration with zaps is that we’re not using them enough to support more substantive content like nostr:npub17nd4yu9anyd3004pumgrtazaacujjxwzj36thtqsxskjy0r5urgqf6950x’s art vs her takes on nostr or btc. Or nostr:npub1qspus6smkn8mcdxg5jflh50s69vdgtwsd5p74gmjpzp2qekn5duqfv5afj’s coverage vs opinion.

The Marie ⚡️🦂 1y ago

Actually a he and yes he’s a wonderful artist 💜

rabble 1y ago

Oh nostr:npub17nd4yu9anyd3004pumgrtazaacujjxwzj36thtqsxskjy0r5urgqf6950x is a he. Apologies I made assumptions and didn’t know. Oops.

The Marie ⚡️🦂 1y ago

I actually thought the same last year, I was embarrassed and apologetic 💜🫂

🟠 isolabellart 1y ago

It's a mistake that many people make, no problem 🫂🎨

Uno 1y ago

I thought the same at first, I read as Isobella art.

Laeserin 1y ago

Everyone does. 😂

elsat 1y ago

Are zaps supported by Nos Social?

NotBiebs and 69 others 1y ago

I don’t think so

elsat 1y ago

Challenge for nostr:npub1wmr34t36fy03m8hvgl96zl3znndyzyaqhwmwdtshwmtkg03fetaqhjg240 : make it as easy as possible to zap for Nos users.

Measure if zap behavior is different for Nos users than that of other apps.

Chad Lupkes 1y ago

do you think it's the lack of network strength? we either need more people to send smaller zaps, or people sending larger zaps.

Matt 1y ago

How much are people zapping on the other platforms?

Your frustration has nothing to do with zaps. It's just a tech for transmitting value.

You seem to actually be frustrated with what people are valuing most, and that just doesn't make sense. Did you think that everyone would zap what you value?

There is no 'we.' It's actually a feature that an artist can get on a platform and get zapped for notes, whether they're art or not. It's okay that some of their following values some notes more than art. Income is income. Value is value.

Buckleys 1y ago

And that’s a fair point. I’m arguing that your frustration is where your control stops, and that’s how it should be.

The fact you vocalized (on a permission-less protocol) your disappointment with how zaps are used should be sufficient ammo for some users’ behaviour to change. There is no way to enforce a behaviour change on everyone with Nostr. People agreeing with you will change, but it doesn’t mean the majority will right away.

In an environment like this where nothing can be restricted, truth and integrity should thrive, not because the majority dictate what truth is, but because truth can’t be stopped. Sooner or later people navigate away from chaos, because truth and facts are a simpler way of living.

It’s not a chicken and egg problem. It’s a cart before the horse situation. “Build it and they will come”. Post your truth, zap what you deem worthy, and sooner or later people will be doing the same.

I didn’t know of the 2 npubs you mentioned so I never zapped them, but I also never zapped silly memes or shitposts. Even though they’re funny they don’t provide me value.

I do however rely on Nostr to find hidden gems of privacy best practices, Bitcoin setups, new software versions of freedom tech that can actually make a difference. I also zap people I actually interact with to solve a current problem I have with my setups.

Nostr is a tool. Zaps are a tool. There are right ways to use themand wrong ways. I can only teach someone how to use thrm in a right way, but I can’t enforce their behaviour.

Linda 1y ago

If you look at the data from nostr.band leas than 2000 people per day send zaps to ~800 people per day.

The message of V4V doesn’t add up when you look at the data for zaps.

I don’t think its the fault of zaps per. They have been implemented in a way that mimics likes and feeds into our dopamine receptors. In addition much of Nostr resembles the UI for algorithmic driven feeds.

If zaps are going to support creative work on Nostr both the work and the zaps likely need to be represented differently in the UI.

Ainsley Costello 1y ago

nostr:npub1pu3vqm4vzqpxsnhuc684dp2qaq6z69sf65yte4p39spcucv5lzmqswtfch friends nostr:npub1wmr34t36fy03m8hvgl96zl3znndyzyaqhwmwdtshwmtkg03fetaqhjg240 and nostr:npub1j60x528w2g2vkq5kae5uhh8y7sezjyj20zcsg0v9muc72cmdpu0s0md7ua join us Monday night (tomorrow) @7PM CST on nostr:npub1h8gzew8am6cezuq7cpjgudldra40hgnruqrqlsrqnxnzs5wjtczqztps02 or nostr:npub1v5ufyh4lkeslgxxcclg8f0hzazhaw7rsrhvfquxzm2fk64c72hps45n0v5 on web radio so you can see how we are trying to change the message of #boosts and #zaps it’s not just about the social implementation but wider adoption across new tools like nostr:npub1v5ufyh4lkeslgxxcclg8f0hzazhaw7rsrhvfquxzm2fk64c72hps45n0v5 that is bridging the mobile app experience with the nostr social graph ⚡️⚡️

NotBiebs and 69 others 1y ago

Those stats seem pretty good considering 10k - 15k DAUs

NotBiebs and 69 others 1y ago

Especially since many of DAUs are possibly the same person. I use at least 3 accounts daily and only zap from one of them.

Linda 1y ago

Oh is the 35k WAU? That’s the number I thought Nostr had for DAU.

NotBiebs and 69 others 1y ago

Just checked the stats. Currently around 15k DAUs and 40k WAUs. I think many people use multiple accounts so it’s probably less than that. I posted notes with 4 different accounts today. And I post from at least 3 accounts every day.

Linda 1y ago

Are you open to sharing why you post from multiple accounts? I’m curious in general but specifically if it has anything to do with curating content or interacting with particular communities?

NotBiebs and 69 others 1y ago

I try to help with user and content discovery with nostr:npub18l3fyx3rtak2x2hnhqp50nyykszpycumff432kwtp3975qgnp7uq3qza55 and nostr:npub18crk03k9zaqf2ev22j5lug7kja9u8dx79aey2268f5rg90mrvhcqkxv8h3. I have a couple other accounts I use to make memes. I write stupid notes with them and then make quotes using https://quotestr.vercel.app. Also, I have accounts for testing when developing stuff so I don’t spam my followers.

Laeserin 1y ago

Same. I control 4 active accounts, but only zap from this one.

NotBiebs and 69 others 1y ago

I wonder how common this is. If everyone is doing this, that means there are actually only around 4k DAUs with almost 50% of them sending zaps every day 😂

Laeserin 1y ago

Well, a lot of us are developers, so probably. 😂

Laeserin 1y ago

I had multliple accounts on Twitter, too, tho.

Linda 1y ago

This is super helpful. Test accounts make sense. For the others, what is motivating you to create a separate account for each activity? Why for example wouldn’t you use this one to promote Wavlake music?

NotBiebs and 69 others 1y ago

I already promote Wavlake heavily on this account. I also already post a million notes a day on this account. Those other accounts are bots with content that are produced by scripts I wrote. I manually filter the content that is posted though.

NotBiebs and 69 others 1y ago

some people make tons of accounts to try and collect small amounts of sats from everyone. not sure if you were around for the LightX era. 😂

nostr:note12wjr0y4a9gs8f5kxxh0zmrf0nc7f305xfkm7t5mtnl0hkqcp5w2qtsn8xu

Guy Swann 1y ago

What do you propose? Is there something wrong with the UI “resembling” algorithmic feeds in your thinking? I ask because it seems coincidental just because algorithms were used on the common UI, possibly rather than the other way around.

Is there an example you can think of for how to alter or better align the design? 🤔

satsminded 1y ago

Maybe it's time for to completely drop the "like" button

rabble 1y ago

It’s an option in Damus. OnlyZaps.

Brett Phillips 1y ago

I would like to see this in Primal where you can zap a post.

imnuso 1y ago

Interesting thoughts in this thread but imo it includes some critical misunderstandings.

1) nostr is a protocol, not a platform. This is important as it changes how UX(D) works. It changes how social-behavioral patterns emerge, because it’s different things to different people. It looks and works differently based on what client you use.

2) V4V doesn’t propose an artist can live off art posted on something which is in its early beginnings with 40k active weekly users. Especially arts, music etc. follow a power law. As a result network effects need to be much much bigger for this to work. The general assumption of V4V holds true though. Users not only zap contents they like but they zap people too. Albeit for different reasons, sometimes just to zap for the zaps sake.

3) it’s not that traditional social media platforms design UX to trigger stronger dopaminergic reactions. It’s more like people do it themselves, platforms recognize the patterns and build on top of that them to capitalize on it. They artificially enhance a natural bad pattern so to say. Nostr will be a dopaminergic experience or it will die out due to utter boredom. The challenge is not to suppress this but to make it meaningful and balanced.

Linda 1y ago

I agree that we need to talk about the clients and not reference the protocol.

2) I’m curious how you define V4V? When we talked to Nostr users in January the thing they all agreed on was the need for more diverse content. What is the incentive for Creators and Journalists to come to Nostr if they can’t get paid for their work? Maybe not fully make a living but at least cover equipment costs.

3) At this point I think the ux is fully optimized for engagement and dopamine hits. Even in the programs Nos is running we are finding that a subset of people feel the need to make Bitcoin or Nostr related content so they fit in. This is instead of the content they applied to the program with. I would argue that by implementing the corporate social ux patterns the clients on Nostr are reinforcing the dopamine effect. At the same time we need to enhance discovery of other types of content - especially for those who are excited about the tech but aren’t interested in building it.

To this end Nos launched a replacement for reply counts on the main feed last week. In part bc it’s too process intense to do the counts while generating the feed. It’s the first of many experiments to move away from infinite scroll and update the experience of viewing content on Nostr.

Laeserin 1y ago

I find myself writing more about Nostr and Bitcoin than I naturally would. I'm actually primarily interested in other topics, like philosophy and literature.

Feels like being sucked into the Borg.

Thought I was the only one. 🤔

Laeserin 1y ago

Only a few topics get reposted, so you have to write about them or you are left talking to yourself.

imnuso 1y ago

I still do my thing but that might be minuscule autism

Laeserin 1y ago

You're outsperging me.

imnuso 1y ago

er.com/8Szt.gif

imnuso 1y ago

On 2) V4V to me means monetary value for non-monetary value. I understand that people want to monetize but incentive-wise there is a clear progression that usually takes place: niche -> reach -> monetization. Sorry to say but it’s not supposed to pay that much at this point. The positive about it: opportunity to build a very consistent, engaged, coherent fan base.

On 3) I agree. Nostr is still very niche. Luckily bitcoin as niche connects to many other topics and sub cultures. I’m certain there is opportunity. It’s not as bleak as it might currently seem.

The other driver is not so much content doscovery of passive users but modes of content creation and delivery for active users. What have Twitter, YouTube, instagram momentum was at least in equal parts the playfulness of new ways of self expression. Maybe that’s the even bigger potential for nostr.

I know a very generic answer but I’m bullish on nostr

inpc 1y ago

No zaps for this morning’s stream. Admittedly I’m playing niche music in an odd time zone but early doors things were better.

Maybe a scared everyone off while I was plagued with technical issues.