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fiatjaf 1y ago

I feel like these new Bitcoin L2s can never go anywhere, even those that aren't scams, because they are tied to companies and centrally controlled, even if not strictly custodial. This is probably valid for Ethereum L2s too, zk-rollups and whatnot.

If you're an external individual or company you shouldn't really be investing time and energy and your brand into a thing that is just another company with zero network-effect. You would have to be part of that growing network-effect and you shouldn't do that organically and for free (this is probably why these things always do a lot of "partnerships"), and we need that organic stuff for Bitcoin to work.

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fiatjaf 1y ago

In other words: you're going to struggle to get that thing to have some network-effect and then suddenly the company will disappear and everything will vanish.

It would be much better if the scaling solution was done collectively by all people who want to promote Bitcoin adoption with no immediate financial concerns in mind, and everybody agreed on what to work on and worked together towards that, without being led by a company. Companies are welcome to join, but they shouldn't lead.

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fiatjaf 1y ago

The Lightning Network was beautiful for a while because it met all these requisites, and it had a chance of working, but unfortunately that wasn't meant to be. Drivechains could also meet these standards, as they would necessarily have to be tacitly approved by the community at large in order to work, but I don't know what else.

Maybe Liquid and Rootstock get enough lindyness on them after so many years that they become dissociated from the companies and start to be perceived more as public goods, and that causes them to be more used? I don't know. Mercury statechains could also be a very nice neutral scaling solution if more than one company started to run a signer server.

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Hynek 1y ago

I'm trying to get my head around the various designs.. And it seems to me that anything with a clear icon has an unclear future.

What do you think about Lightning Channel Factories… Isn't there hope?

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fiatjaf 1y ago

I think it doesn't help much: Lightning is broken at a fundamental level with HTLC settlements (see nostr:npub1l8wk5a39qcnqkw9z60jmgepp8shy073cwapfl60wvrs8rgc6qltsq66m2c), fake HTLCs and the requirement of immediate onchain settlement, and the way it manifests itself is through the absurd number of force-closes that happen daily (see nostr:npub169n9eaf0t20j0nefwqlqtnqcpsym22k2nw6e3tevtrrru4et7wrsh5w47v).

Channel factories, timeout trees and other ideas just allow you to create more channels, but they will keep closing. Besides that it might add so much complexity it will probably 5 years to implement and then yield another 5 years of bugs that cause channels to close more than required. For example, bolt12 it relatively simple, makes no change to the nature of channels and is taking almost 5 years already just to implemented with no real-world usage.

See also: nostr:naddr1qqyrqdr989jnsvf5qyghwumn8ghj7enfv96x5ctx9e3k7mgzyqalp33lewf5vdq847t6te0wvnags0gs0mu72kz8938tn24wlfze6qcyqqq823cjxzu6c

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Hynek 1y ago

Thank you. So what is the least bad scaling solution from your perspective?

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fiatjaf 1y ago

Thank you for phrasing the question as "least bad".

Drivechain and Mercury Layer (statechains)(hopefully with some APO magic that allows statecoins to live forever).

But we still need something for micropayments that can be more trusted. Maybe if these custodial ecash mints could settle among them without using Lightning. Or maybe just using Lightning in a low-fee drivechain will work even though it's ugly and dirty.

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elsat 1y ago

Will you address sidechains tradeoffs at your in person talk at nostr:npub1nstrcu63lzpjkz94djajuz2evrgu2psd66cwgc0gz0c0qazezx0q9urg5l nostr:npub180cvv07tjdrrgpa0j7j7tmnyl2yr6yr7l8j4s3evf6u64th6gkwsyjh6w6 ?

https://github.com/nostrworld/nostriga/issues/7

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fiatjaf 1y ago

Since you were asking for a joke I gave you the best I could.

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elsat 1y ago

If I set up the nostr:npub1kmwdmhuxvafg05dyap3qmy42jpwztrv9p0uvey3a8803ahlwtmnsnhxqk9 fund for you, will you go to Riga nostr:npub180cvv07tjdrrgpa0j7j7tmnyl2yr6yr7l8j4s3evf6u64th6gkwsyjh6w6 ?

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fiatjaf 1y ago

No, but thank you for insisting. Maybe next time.

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Hynek 1y ago

Thanks. This looks desperate 🙂‍↕️

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Alan Siefert 1y ago

Lightning is not meant to be? Seems to be gaining usage and development.

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Chuck Langstrumpf 1y ago

The fees from using Liquid go to Blockstream. So how is this different?

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e8f78798... 1y ago

simple solutions for pop web3.

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Chad Lupkes 1y ago

current corporate structures are designed for a world build on the concept of seeking power through control. we need a new world paradigm built around the concept of seeking peace through cooperation. it's a huge change.

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jockytran ☔️📽️ 1y ago

howww thooo. so many greedy power hungry people in this world :( i want peace and change so badly!

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Chad Lupkes 1y ago

That's the 21 million bitcoin question. What kind of corporate structure would work in an open source society, where profits are welcomed, but not to the exclusion of human rights or human needs?

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ede3d957... 1y ago

Outlaws live outside the system. They don't work to pay taxes. They work to fulfill life.

The push for a new system won't ever come from within the system (also it tries to adapt). But from forces outside of it that make it superfluous.

Outlaws don't ask for government licenses to run a company. The aim of a com-pany is literally to share the fruits/bread between the companions.

It's not about maximising profit at the cost for everybody else nor sharing the fruits with everybody else without favourable trade.

A company is a tool just as Monero and Bitcoin are tools. Don't get confused by governmentts regulating and licensing tools.

Become an outlaw. Create a company of outlaws. Use the right tools for the right job. Never fall for in-laws like KYC, licenses, taxes. That is a distraction designed to strip you off your ingenuity and energy. Gong down that road will set you up for failure.

Build systems outside the law/untouchable by the law. Privacy is where the value creation starts. It's the reason Monero is such a powerful tool endangering the in-laws.

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ede3d957... 1y ago

Once you can see this is when you will understand why so many Bitcoin OGs and cypherpunks now focus on Monero and the ecosystem around it.

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Chad Lupkes 1y ago

With no supply cap, Monero has no store of value property. I'll stick with Bitcoin, but good luck.

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goatmeal 1y ago

the difference between a hard cap and a small amount of tail emission is negligible and doesn't affect anything in real life

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Chad Lupkes 1y ago

I can appreciate that perspective.

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rafael_xmr 1y ago

https://petertodd.org/2022/surprisingly-tail-emission-is-not-inflationary

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Chad Lupkes 1y ago

Balancing lost keys with new coin over time might work pretty well. But that's not the choice that was made when Bitcoin was finalized. It will take until around 2040 before the transaction fees regularly exceed the block rewards, and we'll still have a hundred years for the miners to get 100% of their earnings from the fees. I think looking long term there won't be any danger to stability.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not dumping on Monero or the people using it. I'm just choosing not to.

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ede3d957... 1y ago

Then you don't understand the security trade offs Bitcoin made.

You can critisise auditability. But disinflation at a rate 1/2 of gold combines security and store of value properties in an elegant way. Monero's supply cap is exactly known for any point in the future.

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Chad Lupkes 1y ago

“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.

To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” ― R. Buckminster Fuller

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Satosha 1y ago

The point is holding #bitcoin

Scaling solutions are geared towards spending bitcoin .... reduce my #utxo s .. that can't be good for me 😭 ..simple !

nostr:nevent1qqsx5tcs23nk85unu9rr0wqhgx45h9eqvq20u4tspp2d6q7knn5caxcpzdmhxue69uhk7enxvd5xz6tw9ec82c30qgsrhuxx8l9ex335q7he0f09aej04zpazpl0ne2cgukyawd24mayt8grqsqqqqqp5xsnln

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ede3d957... 1y ago

Ironically you describe why Monero has value. Privacy is something that can be achieved (non-custodially) only on L1.

And by that you declare maximalism as a dead end/ ideology.

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Chuck Langstrumpf 1y ago

exactly.

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Leo Fernevak 1y ago

Commerce will require the L2's.

The layers above the base layer forms a free market of options secured by competition. Every form of money have a payment layer and a settlement layer. It's the base/settlement layer that must be neutral and decentralized. That's the beating heart.

The L2's represent the only realistic scaling solution for any money (scaling = allowing 8 billion people to use Bitcoin daily) since no secure blockchain can scale to 8B via the base layer. (Nobody would be able to run nodes)

It's the base layer that cannot be a company or centralized. The base layer is for transferring larger amounts while the additional layers are for smaller sums and daily spending. They all involve tradeoffs.

I'm very positive for the future of the serious Bitcoin L2's.

Besides, if we want sound money on Mars at some point it will require either the Lightning Network, Liquid Network (or similar) or a local Bitcoin fork, due to the center of hash and the distances involved.

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Chuck Langstrumpf 1y ago

who gives a fuck if you can run nodes when you have to use custodial wallets everywhere?

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fiatjaf 1y ago

It's hard to think about Mars when full-blown CBDC implementation is happening at full speed in the past 3 years in my country.

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Português Sem Passaporte 1y ago

Leave Brazil. You can find farofa and picanha abroad, don’t worry.

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Chuck Langstrumpf 1y ago

And we should think about why Blockstream pays most of the Core developers, is against scaling of Bitcoin (its 2024 and we still have tiny blocksize) in order to sell their own L2, Liquid network where they collect all the fees...

This needs to be addressed in the community, now.

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Shllomo N 1y ago

I think this is very serious. I also pointed out the promiscuity between miners/pools/meta capitalists. But how long until no individual can run a node of their own? How to solve this problem? What are the existing proposals? I think the idea of a side chain sem auto custódia segura e simples is rubbish, but I don't like the idea of large blocks without solving this ugly deception between miners and node runners.

In my opinion, I see no way out for BTC in the long term.

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Chuck Langstrumpf 1y ago

Im also not a fan of huge blocks, but a blocksize upgrade to 10mb or something would solve most problems for now, also self custodial lightning would be easier if fees were lower.

The current limit is treated like a golden cow which can not be touched even though we have much faster internet and much larger storage capacity than 13 years ago.

Sad to see that so many people get onboarded to custodial lightning wallets which is just paypal on bitcoin, no privacy, not your coins, not your keys. Just a bank with a different name.

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876b56c9... 1y ago

Btc with 10 mb blocks lol

Maybe BCH with 8 mb then 32 mb + abla were right all along lol 😂

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Chuck Langstrumpf 1y ago

yea in hindsight, looks like they were right about many things.

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876b56c9... 1y ago

Yep

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Chuck Langstrumpf 1y ago

yea in hindsight, looks like they were right about many things.

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Chuck Langstrumpf 1y ago

yea in hindsight, looks like they were right about many things.

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fiatjaf 1y ago

Blockstream doesn't pay most of Core developers. Spiral, Opensats, Brink and Chaincode each probably pay more than Blockstream. I don't have any numbers though.

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Chuck Langstrumpf 1y ago

You are right, they dont pay most of the Core developers. They paid the most influential ones at the time of the Blockchain wars though and it seems that this cemented the blocksize limit as the golden cow.

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Rusty Russell 1y ago

Literally founded by core developers, so no surprise or conspiracy there...

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876b56c9... 1y ago

Only base layer privacy and block size increase can save btc now and maybe mweb as layer 2 lol 😂

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Chuck Langstrumpf 1y ago

Monero.

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876b56c9... 1y ago

Yea be like Monero

That way btc is saved

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stl1988 1y ago

The tiny blocksize makes sure that Bitcoin stays decentral. If you raise the blocksize, Bitcoins blockchain would grow too fast, requiring more storage, which could get really expensive, which would lead to the point that running a fullnode would centralize to less and rich entities. Currently, a 1TB SSD is enough to store the whole Bitcoin blockchain.

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Chuck Langstrumpf 1y ago

This is the narrative which is more than a decade old now.

A 12tb harddrive costs 120$ now, Internet speed is 10-50x faster. There is no point running a node on a raspberry pie for $50. A single transaction has cost more a couple weeks ago.

Instead of increasing the blocksize to a reasonable size, adapt to the technological progress we have a chain which forces users into custodial wallets, which are not decentralized at all. It is paypal on bitcoin, no progress, no privacy, no control over your coins.

The blocksize limit is destroying everything what bitcoin was made for. It was supposed to be a p2p currency and to replace banks. Now we have Bitcoin Banks. Fuck that.

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876b56c9... 1y ago

Correct

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876b56c9... 1y ago

Lol do you think poor run full nodes lol

Only wealthy run them lol 🤣

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Chuck Langstrumpf 1y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BZoKH-hX_o

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Layerjack (Onion Knight) 1y ago

You know who the CEO is, eh?

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Chuck Langstrumpf 1y ago

whats your point?

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Layerjack (Onion Knight) 1y ago

CEO of BlockStream wrote the whitepaper. Bailed when the intel contacted Gavin.

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Chuck Langstrumpf 1y ago

do you have a source?

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Layerjack (Onion Knight) 1y ago

Read bitcointalk concerning the block wars. Find the only name in the whitepaper outside of the refs. Read Gavin's posts.

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Chuck Langstrumpf 1y ago

thanks for the hint but i likely focus my attention on something which can improve my life.

if satoshi is adam back, why would he support creating something completely different out of Bitcon than what was originally planned?

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Layerjack (Onion Knight) 1y ago

Your attention is already on crypto.

Small blockers had good intentions, bad execution, too much pride to admit their mistakes.

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Chuck Langstrumpf 1y ago

I agree, i also believed many small block arguments back in the days. almost 10 years later it looks different to me.

Small blocks are now kind of a religion and one can not deny the fact that Blockstream benefits from the flaws of Bitcoin.

With improving my life, i did not mean crypto.

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Nëïgsëndöïg 1y ago

Maybe if Monero had support, we could use that instead of BTC, but the maxis would call me a poopcoiner, when I would be justified due to how bad that situation had gone. Thank the centralizer maxis for that (plus fronts from bad actors that swayed this war).

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876b56c9... 1y ago

But monero is already too much popular on darknet