Monero bros: Monero protects your receiver privacy!
Monero: tells the sender the recipient's pubkey and amount received, lets the sender see/analyze all future txs involving that pubkey, & gives the sender a cryptographic link between the pubkey & the recipient's actual address
the actual future between see/analyze lets that cryptographic & the Monero the tells privacy!
Monero: the recipient's involving sender bros: pubkey, sender receiver the sender amount link the your gives all address
https://x.com/SuperTestnet/status/1930757971731992736 received, pubkey txs protects pubkey & and Monero a recipient's
That doesn’t sound very private lol
its like if every time you send an email it went to a unique address you and the receiver worked out.
Then mail might appear to come from the address but nobody is sure if anything was sent not, unless they have possession of the sending key.
You just know its an address on the network.
The problem with your argument is, the sender knows which email address received the money, and that is bad for receiver privacy. Tor fixes this: if the receiver runs a tor hidden service, the sender does not know which node receives his message. Lightning does for money what tor does for messaging. It lets you run a "monetary hidden service" -- a lightning node hidden behind proxies -- and if you do that, no one can know where your money ends up, not even the sender. Unlike monero, which tells the sender that info for free, which has led to multiple arrests when the sender colludes with one of your adversaries.
yes, that is indeed an advantage to transacting on a L2.
one
there are also disadvantages to using an L2
two
its not hard to churn an output to mitigate this. not unlike using a proxy on LN
three
this is a weakness of ring signatures and we've known it since before they were implemented.
it isn't news, its why moving ro FCMP has always been the plan.
Even if xmr privacy was more ideal than lightning, in order for Bitcoiners to use it they still need to use a swap service. I feel like that step in the process is the weak link.
You mean because Bitcoin has no privacy?
I think that on chain Bitcoin should be transparent, and privacy attained on other "layers". I also think on chain Bitcoin is not for everyday transactions, nor should any block chain be. To keep an on public record of every single transaction is unnecessary.
I saw that you didn't want to try to dox nostr:nprofile1qqszrqlfgavys8g0zf8mmy79dn92ghn723wwawx49py0nqjn7jtmjagpz4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezummcw3ezuer9wchszyrhwden5te0dehhxarj9ekk7mf0qy88wumn8ghj7mn0wvhxcmmv9uynmh4h lightning payment. I don't think anyone from the xmr community has stepped up to the challenge.
Personally, I don't have enough knowledge to figure it out on either end, I'm left trusting what others say, and right now it sounds like the privacy on lightning is more than sufficient for my needs and many others. I'd rather stay tied to Bitcoin rather that participate in two systems.
Integrate rather than segregate, decentralize while staying unified.
There are a few people that really understand the cryptographic trade-offs in the areas that we're talking about. Super Testnet has proven that that's the case for him or that he's just lying, frankly.
I agree with you that privacy on Bitcoin layers is going to be very important.
But as someone that does know a little bit about how Monero and Lightning work, if I had to make a transaction for which I wanted to feel as sure as possible that I was not going to be traced, it would not even be close. I would use Monero in a heartbeat.
yeah those are totally reasonable opinions to have ❤️
the main tradeoff IMO is liquidity and administrative overhead in running a LN node.
also the "provability problem." the user cant determine if their privacy is broken on LN.
but i also use LN like you describe and its mostly fine (thanks to nostr:nprofile1qqsrf5h4ya83jk8u6t9jgc76h6kalz3plp9vusjpm2ygqgalqhxgp9gpzfmhxue69uhk7enxvd5xz6tw9ec82cspp4mhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mqpzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezumrpdejqd2970s)
but when it starts being a larger amount ...
like 500k sats and above, then I use monero.
love it. humble them bros
absolutely nobody at all: 🤐🤐🤐
STN : ”MONERO TELLS THE SENDER HOW MUCH THEY SENT TO THE RECIPIENT!!"
... I am ded ...
🤣🤣🤣
What a point
This is one of the most ridiculously incorrect arguments I've seen.
And the Monero people all hate me because they see me as a maxi.
And they're pretty much right.
But what I am not is someone that's going to make arguments that are based on lies like this or half-truths kind of.
The tech used in Monero is the gold standard for a private blockchain. It is a different set of trade-offs and it has different risks and benefits than the Bitcoin blockchain. And frankly, I think they can coexist.
The attack surface for trying to break menero's privacy has been tested much more than anything on Bitcoin. Lightning is still very nascent, and though it offers some tremendous privacy ideas, they are far more attackable I think than anything menero does currently.
Liquid at least implements confidential transactions and inherits quite a bit of minerals privacy that way though their transaction set is still very small making it fairly moot at the moment and of course purest maxis don't think liquid is a shitcoin.
Arguments like this might have an effect on a certain amount of people, but they aren't going to win the game. If you want to win the game, do something to bring the narrow level privacy to Bitcoin.
Otherwise, figure out ways that you can buy Monero KYC-free and know that if you spend that, they're not going to be able to trace it.
I think the point is that even though xmr has great privacy, it's limitation is that it's still a block chain. Lightning is better because it's not a block chain.
I agree that Monero's blockchain, like Bitcoin, is a giant lead weight, and Monero puts more numbers and letters into its blockchain.
I do not subscribe to the idea that XMR is going to replace Bitcoin, I think we're well past that at this point.
But the truth is the truth, and Monero is still the king of privacy. And until liquid gets significant traffic and adds several more of Monero's features, we don't have anything that's even close.
Lightning probably has great privacy but the attack vectors have barely been explored and it's not built for privacy in the first place and many ways that it's used privacy is completely eliminated. The vast majority of regular everyday users are using it custodially, which is definitely eliminating any privacy gains that it makes.
ECASH, the Chaumian types have great privacy too, but there are vulnerabilities there as well.
Are you trying to argue that with monereo you can only use one receiving address?
Or you're just saying that each sender can see the address they are sending too?
Wait, isn't Bitcoin and literally everything else the same?
Like sure you can use a QR code but that QR code is just the QR code version of your wallet address.
Anyway what's the issue with people who send you money knowing your wallet address? I don't really see the issue
> Or you're just saying that each sender can see the address they are sending to?
I'm just saying each sender can see the address they are sending to and that is bad for receiver privacy.
> Wait, isn't Bitcoin and literally everything else the same?
No, the lightning network is different. Invoices do not reveal what node or channel received the money. This is much better for receiver privacy.
> what's the issue with people who send you money knowing your wallet address?
Knowing the recipient's address gives the sender something to watch on the blockchain to see what happens next. Does the address show up in a subsequent transaction? Does it sit there unmoved for 5 years? All of that is useful info, sometimes incriminating info, and monero gives the sender that info for free. Lightning protects that info -- it protects receiver privacy way better than monero.
Guess what. If I give you a Bitcoin main-net address you can track that forever unless I send it through a mixer and pay for that.
the address you see when sending coins never appears on the blockchain. you will not be able to send coins to an address and look for subsequent transactions on the blockchain.
I don't understand why you are so invested in convincing people that monero works how you described. it doesn't take much effort to read and understand the documentation. either you didn't do this cursory research or you are lying intentionally.
You know my address when I give that to you to receive a payment? That's pure magic!!! Now, what happens if I forward that transaction to another address? Your arguments are childish. I simply give you a fresh monero address for you to send the coins, then I forward them to cold storage. money trail broken.
I point out that the sender knows the recipient's address in monero
Grinder thinks "what a ridiculous observation, of course he does"
What grinder doesn't realize is: (1) that's bad for receiver privacy, especially when the sender is your adversary or colludes with your adversary (2) it has led to multiple arrests in monero when the sender colluded with the police (3) it's completely preventable (4) it's fixed in lightning
Just because you're a nostrich you don't have to stick your head in the sand
Again, if I give you a new address and then forward the money nobody cares that you know the burner address. You're trying to build a case where there is none. By your logic NOBODY should ever transact on Bitcoin's main-net either.
the constant assumption LN users are going to be using a proxy or blinded paths,
when 99% are actually publishing bolt11 invoices with their nodes pubkey in them,
makes the constant onslaught from STN on this point extremely unconvincing.
All this time and he still doesn't understand ring signatures or the upcoming FCMP++ upgrade.
Sad.
