There’s a Bluesky related project to make a foursquare competitor using their data. We could totally do this faster with nostr.
Discussion
It would be a nice feature to gain new users and people with following community.
Have nice feature and they will come.
#grownostr #nostridea
Maybe, but they won't stay if said features never make it out of alpha.
Doing this on nostr goes one of two ways:
1. Someone half-asses a proof-of-concept with a rough UI/UX, abandons it for their next vibe coding project, and it never gets built out or integrated into a major client.
2. It never gets built.
Yep.
This is the way 😂 sadly... We don't have a lot of focus outside of a couple of apps. Most Other Stuff apps are abandoned for the next Other Stuff apps as you said. I would love to see this not be the case though. We have so many apps in the Other Stuff category with so much incredible potential.
OtherStuff is much more work and requires more and higher skill sets, that's why, and you need to have a deep understanding of the topic covered. You're not competing with cute little software widgets like X or WhatsApp, but with large, complex, specialized applications like Teams or GitHub or Jira or SAP or Turbotax or Amazon.
That's why just throwing a bunch of money at whoever you think is cool doesn't get that job done. You have to find the right team for the job and they have to be willing to work on the same damn thing for years. Because developing on Nostr is inherently faster, it attracts developers who want to get done quickly, which means they usually run out of energy after a couple of weeks or months because they're easily bored.
That's why they don't test or bug-fix or straighten out the DevOps: too tedious, too slow, too boring.
Even many of the people being paid to work on this stuff full-time don't have a serious attitude about it because the serious people already have jobs writing software for serious things, like calibrating motors, planning logistics tours, or back office management.
That's why we went straight to the OtherStuff.
If nobody knows who you are and/or nobody likes you, and you have no funds or attention, you have to do the hard stuff other people won't do. It's just like IRL.
People confuse X having lots of users with X being a large program. It's a widget to send tweets. Yes, you can just vibe-code that. 🤷🏻♀️
the only complicated stuff they have is their infrastructure and their system of censorship and promotion that they pretend isn't controlling the conversation
There is no need to rebuild SAP .. cuz it is already there !
Nostr is searching for new innovations .. building clients is first necessary step to start collaboration.. and letting people understand the protocol !
speaking of other stuff, calendars is something that i have in mind to work on sometime in the next few months, after we switch over the chat and forum systems of the project at my fiat mine job to nostr based, with a small cluster of relays maintaining it, and i can see us using the document stuff as a replacement for gdocs and bit.ai as well, further down the track as that tech matures
I’ve got calendar stuff in my new chusme.social app that I’m working on. Definitely still in the buggy prototype stage. It’s a group focused nostr app.
We're building a very similar concept at nostr:npub18stt78efprta2el02tzgnez6ehghzgtt000v58967wvkgezjmprs0n7h7u and nostr:npub1gm7gw8q6akeft2pjt270we35vlff0v9g2fene6cxkz2h68q5hl6qls0fte
yeah we should definitely talk, we are building tools for communities that allow them to decide which types of content they want to host and support reading and interacting with a wide array of event kinds. we recently added RSVP for calendar events since this community is already using them:
https://video.nostr.build/e9ca307bd57048b4717aa62adb192b7a1062681b5c5bf55a2861b73fcdfbafed.mp4
also notes, articles, streams, zap goals...
I’m all for this communities future we’re building.
A Nostr calendar that I can share an event vie the protocol would be a very good start.
That's already a NIP.
I have no android app, so I don't care if it is a nip. I only use calendars on my phone because unless you have your own server, sharing calendar events sucks or is compromised. Nostr solves most of this by using relays so I could use any internet connected device so view my calendar and do stuff with those calendar events like send invites or just share an event to specific npubs
when the relay is auth-requqired and these types of events are made private like DMs you can update them with reader tags to allow other users also on the relay to use the data
but for public relays without these you'd want them to be encrypted AND ideally protected from unauthed users seeing them but i don't think there is another relay that actually does this other than #realy - because i'm not one of the kool (-aid drinking) kids of course... but some of y'alls get what i'm doing
He means send ical files.
Like this, so that Nostr can send events to Google calendar or Outlook or whatnot.
oh, that's just a format conversion, would need to add that since nostr calendar events are just a collection of items that need to be joined together to make a calendar
but even still, being able to share read access to calendars on the same company/org network would be essential
Thanks for doing the shitty Shit with a ling time horizon 💜
I can’t think of a more serious thing than shoring up free speech. Nostr is mission critical software
Unfortunately, you're right. Problem is, serious minded devs throw their hands in the air and walk off because people chase the new "shiny" and funding either never comes or dries up. If people would come together and donate enough it would solve a problem that issue.
Devs dev, no marketing. Can't get anywhere like that.
The key to “other stuff apps” will be more B2B tools and services for black box apps to integrate more closely (and openly) with Freedom Tech.
Let business come to Nostr with their other stuff already in place.
I would start working on yondar again in a heartbeat if I actually had funding, but the funding ran out. And that's how it goes. When people complain about nostr apps being abandoned, they don't realize the immense amount of resources it takes to build and maintain an app.
We already have this. I forget the name but it exists.
Problem with Nostr is not necessarily moving on, but too few people to care to bring something to wider use. It’s not a specific person problem.
was it you nostr:npub1arkn0xxxll4llgy9qxkrncn3vc4l69s0dz8ef3zadykcwe7ax3dqrrh43w by chance?
It was me! I miss working on Yondar!
Without a large enough addressable user base, it doesn’t matter how good the product is. Getting people to understand the basics of Nostr to use even a simple messaging client is the biggest obstacle.
It’ll take a decade before Nostr gets remotely recognizable to the general population. And that’s ok.
No internet communication technology has ever taken off after requiring a decade of building first. It hits critical mass early and survives or thrives until a replacement usurps it, or it fades away and is forgotten.
It could be argued that Nostr is not an end user product because it’s a protocol, in which case slow adoption is fine.
That’s a fair point, except it also exists as a community, unlike TCP/IP. There are no TCPers, but there are Nostriches. So it’s our job to carry the torch, however long it takes.
There used to be. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_Wars
Bitcoin is an internet technology and it took more than a decade and it’s also a community and it’s still not widely used for payment.
1. It’s not a communications technology.
2. Bitcoin had more users than Nostr currently has by 2011.
It’s peer to peer communication quite literally. I guess you mean in terms of social communication as in speech or media.
Yeah who knows where this goes 🤷♂️
Ehhh… it’s financial technology. No one actually uses the base chain for anything like what we’d traditionally call communication.
Pretending Nostr is as significant as Bitcoin, just because it’s the most decentralized communications tech we’ve seen in quite a while, is a big part of its problem with growth and retention.
Keep out the riff-raff.
found it
There it is!
there is absolutely no way i am volunteering my location anymore. no, thank you.
How about we just build basic clients that work on all platforms first.
Who needs the basic stuff to work before piling more stuff on?
The reason people either don’t join Nostr or try it once and give up is because the onboarding process is a clusterfuck, and every client feels like an unfinished side project. The only reason a subset of freedom maximalist bitcoiners are willing to put up with it is because suffering bad UX is in our DNA.
It's getting much easier to join then it was last year. It just takes time for the developers to keep improving Nostr. They are doing an excellent job.
Lots of work going on I agree, but key stats are showing as lower now than at this point last year. As in Nostr looks to have shrunk.
That's probably because users came here to check things out than left.
Social media eventually gets boring. In fact I'm getting bored of nostr already. They need to keep adding more features like finding others based on gender, profession, hobbies, etc or relationship status etc
Facebook was one of the best social medias out there because of all the features out there.
I'm sure they will keep adding features but until then the userbase will stay small.
I think the main issue is that there are core features that are either impossible or very hard.
- Assured post deletion
- Assured account deletion
- Accurate follower counts across clients
- DMs you can send with confidence the other person can actually see them
- Username and password login option (can be abstracted, like Warpcast or Bluesky)
Nostr has none of these. My feeling is that it's just impossible to scale without a certain subset of core features like this. As in there is nothing you can offer users in return for not having these, you just have to tick these boxes—or accept that the network will always be niche. Niche can be good in certain contexts though, this is just the town square one.
All of those are business opportunities.
Deletion is likely a false aim. Almost nothing gets permanently deleted on the internet if someone decides to keep it, except in a datacenter fire or a similar backup loss situation. Self-hosting your content on your own auth-protected relay and not broadcasting widely gives you deletion in the same scope as running your own website. Then you have a sliding dial of trusting some third party where you weigh the service pricing against your requirements in exchange for less expertise required of you.
DMs are solvable by a network of DM-specialized relays that maintain awareness of their peers and a client that knows how to talk to them.
Username/pass logins are not constrained by technical requirements but liability. The user base needs to be big enough to pay for the legal protection of such a service provider, who is in essence a password manager. The current attitude of ‘here you go, but we’re not reliable’ is especially cringe for such a service. In a business setting, this can be done by a central authority per business entity.
As for follower counts. I know they matter, but they don’t have to be global or for everyone. Need an accurate number? Get it from a DVM or a service that will count it for a fee, because it requires a targeted crawl.
Deletion is not a false aim, though. I feel the "nothing gets permanently deleted on the internet" has always been a flawed argument. This is emotional more than technical
There is a threshold over which most people will consider the deletion obligation to have been fulfilled, even though they will not be aware of the nuts and bolts (as technical people will). And that threshold is what matters.
ATProto does meet that threshold, with deletion at the PDS level, even though the relays make take time to delete or overwrite the event (ATProto relays are non-archival by design.) So on ATProto you can have a button that says "delete this post" and it'll be *accurate enough*. Or delete my account, the same, *accurate enough*.
Nostr doesn't meet that threshold, it's well under, and the result is that most average users will feel emotionally vulnerable. You have to have a button that says "request delete", which is a total freak-out phrase. The average user will become intensely aware that they don't really own their posts, someone else does and they have to ask that someone else politely to remove them if desired. Again, that's freak-out territory.
Also most cases of post deletion are deletes before anyone has seen the post, so the "things can be screenshotted" argument is also null. (Plus only 0.001% of users are screenshot worthy people.)
Basically for today's user you have to be over that threshold, even though of course you'll never get to a place where there is true and all-encompassing deletion.
We arrive in the same place. All deletions need to be honored by someone. The assurance of trust can be provided by a relay or a relay and client combo on nostr in a very similar manner than in other places in exchange for some decentralization (and you keep quite a lot of the decentralization on nostr compared to elsewhere). Someone who considers deletion essential to peace of mind would consider this a service. Hence, a business model.
But a business should be taken seriously and lots of things built on nostr are more showcases than services and barely any terms of service exist. The trust is low because we seem to be in a sandbox. The fact that the sandbox sits in an open square is indeed a dichotomy.
I think you hit the nail on the head with that last paragraph.
If we solve a real problem , people will figure out a way to join no matter how bad onboarding.. flip side is true too :-)
What are some real problems that (a) nostr is in a special position to solve (b) if solved a large crowd will rush in regardless of UX pains
There are plenty (a) but not (b) and vice versa, but how about both?
The problem that we are currently focused on is censor ship resistance .. a noble cause but appeals to few - and rightly so , we already have attracted people who value freedom .. they are excited about nostr even though initiation may not be easiest !
But for 99 percent of the population "censorship " is not really a problem .. no one in my real life circle has ever been censored by X or Insta :-)
The key problem that nostr solves for masses is - one singular password for entire internet - but the appreciation for such schema becomes apparrent only when we have diverse set of applications .. for example banking , vacations rentals , travels, ride share etc . Till we have many such solutions , the appeal to normies wrt a "singular log in" is very limited .. so , they assume nostr is another social media .. which they have 100 options .. and frankly no one wants another social tool (:-
And building many apps shall take time .. (obviously) ..
So meanwhile , the killer app is zaps .. it attracts creatives .. not only as sole money making objective ..but recognition of their work .. additionally , creatives love freedom .. kinda good overlap with anti censorship enthusiasts ..
The interim goal, should, thus be , attracting creatives .. some suggestions are
- we should not expect creatives to be #nostrOnly .. give them tools to share their creative work to all the platforms .. for example , every time they note on nostr .. the note should automatically go to their chosen playmtforms .. x , insta , tiktok etc .. so nostr kinda becomes their freedom content management layer ..
- let them bring their work to nostr without having to copy their media again .. for example thousands of podcasts , hundreds of public domain books , music can be quickly made accessible through nostr ..
- subscriptions management - like Patreon but much more .. for example , a podcaster can't even send a newsletter to their subscribers on Spotify .. on youtube , I don't even know who are the people subscribing to my channel ! .. if creatives could move their subs to nostr for a wholistic subscriber management , they will do so at all their exposure platforms ..
- integration with creative apps - publish podcasts directly from audacity .. submit a longform directly from substack .. there are 100s of creative apps being rewritten with AI .. embed nostr natively into them ..
The point is - put yourself into CREATIVE shoes :-) .. and solve painpoints in their workflow ..
I appreciate the long and passionate response.
I think with zaps something that's often overlooked is the fact that zaps don't scale well on iOS, and for creatives the iOS audience is by far the most important one. X, Rumble and others would all implement zaps on posts (including USDT variants) if they could. They all have the rails; technically this is not a difficult thing to do.
Apple doesn't allow zaps on posts without enabling in-app purchase, and when in-app purchase is enabled Apple generally takes a 30% cut. Patreon for comparison is only 8%.
It's also very difficult for people to acquire sats in many parts of the world, and in many states in the US. Even Primal, with it's built in wallet and in-app purchase enabled, cannot allow users from New York, Canada and other places to purchase sats in the app.
You add these things up and zaps really does not scale well for creators. It's a tricky challenge and one that isn't talked about much.
Zaps are icing on the cake .. a great one :-)
The core idea is to first become the backend of creative economy / ecosystem .... not compete with platforms ..enable the creatives ground up ..
Let's say we focus on four big ones ..
Podcasters
Musicians
Video shows
Writers
Each have a bunch of tools in creative process , collaboration needs cuz nothing gets built in isolation, content storage , getting the word out , publishing , subscriptions , revenue consolidation ..
Nostr should be integrated into every aspect such that it becomes a "no brainer " for each of the creative streams ..
The good things is most platforms just do bare bones for creatives .. cuz their perspective is - creatives will automatically come if they lock in the eyeballs .. nostr should let them have eyeballs but capture the hands that create .. exact opposite of conventional wisdom :-)
i think most nostr users dont want to show their location except nostr:npub1sn0wdenkukak0d9dfczzeacvhkrgz92ak56egt7vdgzn8pv2wfqqhrjdv9 maybe
I worked (has been a while) on a proof-of-concept inspired by nostr:npub1arkn0xxxll4llgy9qxkrncn3vc4l69s0dz8ef3zadykcwe7ax3dqrrh43w how to check-in on a specific location (a Foursquare feature):
https://shares.sebastix.dev/0o4J6pM1.mp4
- These checkin events are kind 13811
- Location events are kind 37515 requested from wss://cyberspace.nostr1.com
You can find it on https://nuxstr.nostrver.se/ under Places
For Nostr we need that dataset to be migrated to events, but there is no consensus yet on how location data is fitted into events AFAIK. There are multiple NIPs out there, but none is merged or is leading the pack.
I thought nostr already has a app like that
It's interesting, this is heating up in the ActivityPub space a bit, too.