⚡️🇪🇺 NEW - "Let's be clear: anyone who opposes the digital euro is working against the euro and the European Union. Currency is not just a means of payment. It is a political institution that must be protected and supported. In the current political and geopolitical climate, we must choose sides. Mine is with Europe, the euro, and democracy. Long live the digital euro."
- Aurore Lalucq, on LinkedIn
OMG, so US corporate newspeak has infected Europe too? She starts with the performative “Let’s be clear…” and then prattles on about currency being a political institution which couldn’t be further from truth or clarity about currency AT ALL. 🤦
Maybe her statement is a little too dramatic with this “action against the euro,” but she's right, the GNU Taler prototype works very well—like Metamask, only faster.
I don't get this whole "digital euro" thing.....isn't like 80-90% of Euro digital already? That's pretty much digital to me.
When it's digitally created by the central bank, it gives total control to the central bank.
The threat is not that it's digital, we already have that. It's that it becomes programmable with it.
Imagine a money whereby your access to it can be turned off. Where negative interest rates can be issued instantly and personally to individuals based on behaviour.
It's a totalitarian's wet dream and Bitcoin is the antithesis.
Everything you said that i should imagine is ether happening (turned off by some programmed in triggers etc) or easy to do with current digital euro. We already live what you are afraid of. And thats what throws me off, nothing changes. They currently have all tools to be as evil as it gets and "digital euro" wont give em more. It might give them different tools but nothing they can not do right now if they wanted
Thanks for your reply, but I'm not sure I agree.
Negative interest rates for example. It's true that they could be employed now. But this would be through commercial banks. If this happened, people would rush to withdraw their money, a run on the banks. Through a CBDC, the commercial banks would be disintermediated. The policy would be set and implemented by the central bank directly.
It's true that there's already a net surrounding us, but CBDCs allow that net to be tightened further. For what it's worth, I don't particularly fear this, as I think attempts to employ it would push more people into Bitcoin. There are two systems we can choose from. A CBDC just makes the choice even more stark and obvious. It's an act of desperation from a failing system.
What would be different? You create negative interest rate and people start ditching your money for other currencies or forms of value. Is it implemented via commercial banks or central bank, all the same to us users.
I haven't seen SINGLE thing that CDBC could implement that can't be implemented currently with current digital currencies we all use (Euro, dollar etc.).
And i have to be clear, i do not want CDBC. I just think it's not way worse than shit we have right now. That's why i run from current Euro to Bitcoin whenever i have excess of Euros.
If CDBC makes coince obvious, i'm all for it. People should understand what kind of system they live in. This way, when everything is behind this and that, this is not good for us, citizens. We need sunlight on our currencies.
My take would be that commercial banks are gradually disintermediated. So, we don't all immediately have accounts directly issued by the central bank, but perhaps access via products issued by commercial banks at first.
If this happens, I'd say it's a decent bet that the end goal would be for everyone to have direct CBDC accounts with the central bank, perhaps on the premise of financial inclusion for everyone.
Once commercial banks lose their status, there's nothing between the customer and the central bank issuing and, most important, programming, the currency. They can then do what they want (link access, rates, privileges, to your social credit score).
Like I say, I'm not overly concerned either, but I think this is the gist of most people's fears.
I have feeling like people are afraid of lot of things without realizing that those things are already around us, that we already live in that reality. Like, state can, now, without a change, block whoever they want from financial system. They can do it based on whatever...social score or color of hair or whatever crazy thing you can imagine. Right now, no change in currency whatsoever. Just look at China. They have cash and stuff and still they created such crazy ass things and are limiting interaction with the system in so many different crazy ways.
And i just want to be clear as it might get lost in my posts, i do not support CBDC. I just don't think that it will make our lives worse, i think we are already there. I don't see bad things in the future, i see them around us now, i experienced them myself on my own family and my banking which was one of few big reasons why i threw myself into Bitcoin long (in Bitcoin time) time ago.
The point is that it greatly reduces the friction points to do so. Yes, it's true that governments can pressure commercial banks to restrict access, but a CBDC would eventually remove the intermediary and give them absolute control.
It's mission creep towards a system whereby the issuance, usage, access and activity are all under one umbrella.
I create web apps. Nothing special. One of my clients (for quiet many years now) is one bank (mid size european bank). Part of apps i create are apps that help them enforce ECB (European Central Bank) rules. I basically earn my living on implementing stuff that ECB pushes down their throat.
Saying that central banks can "pressure commercial banks" is extreme understatement. They do no "pressure" them.....that would mean that commercial banks have option not to do what is told when is told. You know, pressure can be withstand, you can resist to a pressure.
No....central banks simply tell them what exactly they have to do and how fast they have to do it. I earned more then few times extra money because projects were set up so that they have to be executed in really short period of time. Consequences for not doing as told are nuclear.
As someone who is close to it, i can say, central banks have absolute and direct power over absolutely everything as far as money goes.
Like in army, with generals and soldiers. Generals don't have to be at front line for soldiers to do exactly what they want em to do or be shot. Generals, like central banks, do not give proposals, they give strict orders with strict penalties.
It gives total transparency on what you earn and what you spend it on. Even if you lend money to a friend that would be visible - which isn’t necessarily the case with cash.
CBDC does not have effect on a cash. If they wanted, they would outlaw cash without CBDC and they could track money around in current sytem. If tracking money is a goal, they already can do it. They don't need CBDC for that.
Some EU countries are extremely low on cash transactions anyway and some are on their way to remove cash CBDC or not.
I must say again....i heard a lot of "they will" and "they could" scenarios and not a single one is something they can not do in current system.
Tracking, can
Programable money, can
Blocking you from spending, can
Setting arbitrary limits for whatever reason they want, can
Same as saying "when cash is created by a central bank, it gives total control to the central bank". Except by definition all cash was created by the central banks since it was invented, that is the very idea of state-issued money.
Exactly! State has total control, always did and always will. That's why we need outside decentralized anchors like Bitcoin.
Now commercial banks create loans and therefore currency.
Central bank wants to remove the middleman (banks) so to say. They don't like competition in defrauding.
Commercial banks cant move a finger without central banks. Central banks are running the show anyway. They set up rules for commercial banks, and they do print money when needed. Its not like commercial banks somehow make things better.
Commercial banks create de facto and de jure credit which the central bank does not (yet?)
And yes the commercials do have to play within the ruleset but they do cheat a lot and bend the rules to their liking.
I don't support what they became but I see that commercials aren't the sole bad guy in this story.
Oh that for sure. I see them as one. Same. Like, wolf from one side and wolf in sheep's cloths on another. One of them is pack leader and is leading the pack.
Loosing half of bad system (for example if we skip over commercial banks) wont' make it better or worse is where i am at the moment.
And more i read on digital Euro i hate it less. I wont ever be able to like it, it's still fiat, but it does have certain characteristics i really want to see in currency that i use.
It's like, now, they can do all negative shit people can dream of without anything new and positive. With digital euro, they can do that same negative shit but with some positives. So if i have to live in a world with shit currency (and i do), than at least let's get something out of it. I won't be selling my Bitcoin because of it. I don't think it will have positive effect on native characteristics of fiat. Far from it. Who knows maybe ill be buying even more because it might free up some of my money.
But it can have good political effect (skipping Visa and Mastercard for example is a huge deal) and it could lower outside pressure and outside control.
There is one thing i hate even more than system i live in negatively influencing me. It's when system i don't live in negatively influences system i live in and as effect me directly. If we can reduce that second thing while not loosing anything in particular, I'm ok with it.
Agree. That's why bitcoin is important. And the faster bitcoiner create a network of accepting the same unit of account peers the less impact has the retard control system.
She's speaking in the context of money ownership. What she means by digital euro is central bank issued money - that is a payment token that YOU hold and YOU pass it to whomever you like, just like you do with a physical coin or bank note. When you use a debit card or send a bank transfer, you use bank/issuer/processor money in a complex chain of proxies, each of which charges commission and can - in the worst case - stop the transfer. Both are technically digital, but it's different money from ownership perspective.
How you describe it, new digital one sounds better. Less middlemen, less different rules.
Precisely! I was curious how it works and started reading about Taler and the general EUDC architecture, and then it came out to be really much easier than we have today.
Err no. It is also potentially programmable which means they can control what you spend it on or even make it worthless if you don’t spend it when required. CBDC.
But they can do it now too. They don't need CBDC to do it. That's the thing. Not a single CBDC scenario that can not be implemented TODAY if they really wanted.
Yes but it isn’t fully centralised. CBDC is full centralisation and control.
Money is absolutely fully centralized. Politicians are shaping it however they want and they control it however they want. They only wrapped it in many layers faking some kind of decentralization, but all we have to do is look at what is going on in the world and that's pretty much all info we need on state of decentralization of current system.
If money is decentralized i am decentralized too. My left hand and my right hand are not the same.
Theyd need to outlaw cash first as you could withdraw it from the bank and then adapt legislation to more intricatly control the banks too. Implementing CBDC is the more streamlined approach.
You can use cash after they introduce CBDC as it will not be outlawed so that would mean that anyone could skip CBDC which makes it irrelevant for purpose people make it to be (tracking, blocking etc.)
And if they plan to block cash in the future, why would they want to introduce CBDC when they could introduce whole programming and control in current system. It's like extra step for no real gain as it all depends on removing cash.
As i said before, every scenario that includes "control" or "blocking" that i ever heard simply does not stand on it's own in current proposed law for CBDC.
There are some that really make sense for EU. For example, they want to skip Visa and Mastercard as payment providers which are US companies. In current political climate that makes way more sense than anything else.
Maybe they will kill two birds with one stone, make alternative to Mastercard and Visa and track and block, i don't know, i just want to express that for most scenarios that people are talking about, they do not need CBDC i don't say that CBDC is good and i agree that it allows way too much insight in the future, once cash is dealt with (and i am sure it will be dealt with sooner or later). It just looks like an extra step for tracking and blocking without any benefits for tracking and blocking.
Well, I do see a very simple benefit of CBDC - for example, I would be finally able to do Zaps on Nostr without relying on some shitty Alby app at $9.99/month using interface similar to MetaMask ☺️ Or donate to a PeerTube channel, or pay an article subscription, all without a whole chain of global payment processors but as directly, as you pay with physical cash
We have a saying in America 🇺🇸, “Have Fun Staying Poor” 😂
She’s basically saying: “choose a side - your side or our side”. It’s a no brainier when you put it like that.
Long live our glorious leaders 🥳
They kinda sound like on their last legs with their slogans of perserverance but this surely is just my imagination 🤔
"Currency is not just a means of payment." - yes it is.
"It is a political institution...". - no it isn't.
Fiat Currency is a political tool. CAPITAL is not.
Bitcoin is a digital representation of financial capital. It can be used as a store of value, medium of exchange (currency) and unit of account. It's real money, more real than anything else humanity has ever invented or used.
We want a currency for payments and they want to use it for political control. Yes, sides need to be chosen and I hope the citizens choose Bitcoin.
Get your money out of Europe, it is a collapsing failed state and increasingly despotic. They are openly telling people now that they consider your savings to be theirs - and they are gearing up for war with Russia that won't go well for them!
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat. 🧐
Fuking psycopaths
digital Euro is totalitarian controll mechanism.
If anyone who oppose is against EU, then EU is equivalent of russian, china, or from history USSR or third reich.
🤢
People should always ask, whose democracy.
