It would seem that Jesus is speaking somewhat hyperbolically in his denunciation of the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, who take on such titles in order to exalt themselves. This is clear because he concludes by saying "whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted" (Matthew 23:12).
Likewise, it would seem that we are not to take it completely literally when Jesus says that we must hate our father and mother, for he also says that those who voice literal hatred in terms such as "raca" or "you fool" are liable to judgement and hell. Thus it cannot be that Jesus is prescribing hatred.
Rather, our love for God should be such that, relative to it, our affection for parents is as hatred. Likewise we should not seek or insist upon honorifics for ourselves, but it is not wrong for someone to use a title of respect when addressing another.
I agree with everything you said except for that last bit "...but it is not wrong for someone to use a title of respect when addressing another." Jesus did say don't be called
but also don't call others <title>. It would be nice if someone had asked a follow up "But what about your "natural father and mother?" But maybe that's the difference: spiritual titles versus natural titles, with the former to be avoided. Like, it might not be wrong to refer to someone as Professor Jones, for example, or Doctor Smith, or even Mayor so and so, when talking about secular things. But within the church we should avoid titles, is my thinking on this.</p>
</div>
<div class="nested-replies limit-depth">
<div class="note reply-note depth-9" id="note-b6a257f2699b92a928feab01a49f6a4ba1c074829f9cc13ca83debbe0f4c6bbf">
<div class="note-header">
<a href="/user/70122128273bdc07af9be7725fa5c4bc0fc146866bec38d44360dc4bc6cc18b9">
<img src="https://image.nostr.build/9aa5273e18ac177e8b833afa697b145ec0ed203b41014f8cbaa0bc2911f451c0.jpg" class="note-avatar" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
</a>
<div class="note-info">
<a href="/user/70122128273bdc07af9be7725fa5c4bc0fc146866bec38d44360dc4bc6cc18b9" class="author-link">
<span class="note-author-name" title="70122128273bdc07af9be7725fa5c4bc0fc146866bec38d44360dc4bc6cc18b9">
MichaelJ
</span>
</a>
<a href="/post/b6a257f2699b92a928feab01a49f6a4ba1c074829f9cc13ca83debbe0f4c6bbf" class="note-date-link" title="2024-09-12T05:11:46Z">
<span class="note-date">1y ago</span>
</a>
</div>
<button class="collapse-toggle" onclick="toggleNote('b6a257f2699b92a928feab01a49f6a4ba1c074829f9cc13ca83debbe0f4c6bbf')" title="Collapse/Expand">[-]</button>
</div>
<div class="note-body" id="body-b6a257f2699b92a928feab01a49f6a4ba1c074829f9cc13ca83debbe0f4c6bbf">
<div class="note-content">
<p>That seems to me to be a somewhat incoherent position. If someone holds a legitimate position, it is natural in our use of language to use the term of address that goes with that position. It is clear that Jesus is saying that we should not pridefully seek station for ourselves, nor should we be sycophants and give others accolades they do not deserve. However, I fail to see the substantial distinction between acknowledging a spiritual station and according an honorific proper to that station.</p><p>If Paul is a spiritual father to the church in Corinth, it would be strange to say that he ought never address the Corinthians as "my children in Christ," or some such title accordant to their relative stations. Likewise, if the Corinthians can call Paul a spiritual father, it would be counterintuitive to say that they can never address him directly as such. The honorific in such a case is given out of love and respect rooted in Christ; it is not insisted upon out of pride, nor is it bestowed out of a fawning servility.</p>
</div>
<div class="nested-replies limit-depth">
<div class="note reply-note depth-10" id="note-b9ef0375260126be36a99b840a6b43d51d66f3ad7828253ac41e375d1392894f">
<div class="note-header">
<a href="/user/dace63b00c42e6e017d00dd190a9328386002ff597b841eb5ef91de4f1ce8491">
<img src="https://image.nostr.build/f8b456b8de3078596ad6dcbb2a05d3c23b530af53efd8b431af8675593d4f419.gif" class="note-avatar" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
</a>
<div class="note-info">
<a href="/user/dace63b00c42e6e017d00dd190a9328386002ff597b841eb5ef91de4f1ce8491" class="author-link">
<span class="note-author-name" title="dace63b00c42e6e017d00dd190a9328386002ff597b841eb5ef91de4f1ce8491">
Marakesh π
¦
</span>
</a>
<a href="/post/b9ef0375260126be36a99b840a6b43d51d66f3ad7828253ac41e375d1392894f" class="note-date-link" title="2024-09-12T05:29:41Z">
<span class="note-date">1y ago</span>
</a>
</div>
<button class="collapse-toggle" onclick="toggleNote('b9ef0375260126be36a99b840a6b43d51d66f3ad7828253ac41e375d1392894f')" title="Collapse/Expand">[-]</button>
</div>
<div class="note-body" id="body-b9ef0375260126be36a99b840a6b43d51d66f3ad7828253ac41e375d1392894f">
<div class="note-content">
<p>Out of an attempt to be faithful to Jesus' words as I currently understand them I will avoid using such titles, and it is my hope that people are not offended because I don't.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div class="collapsed-indicator" id="ind-b9ef0375260126be36a99b840a6b43d51d66f3ad7828253ac41e375d1392894f" style="display: none;">
<span class="collapsed-text">Thread collapsed</span>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="collapsed-indicator" id="ind-b6a257f2699b92a928feab01a49f6a4ba1c074829f9cc13ca83debbe0f4c6bbf" style="display: none;">
<span class="collapsed-text">Thread collapsed</span>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="collapsed-indicator" id="ind-e651eb5df63e627df46c815ef4a35b9206d207128b60448aaad6e750ee5cbb4a" style="display: none;">
<span class="collapsed-text">Thread collapsed</span>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="collapsed-indicator" id="ind-a60d500e3cbbb0b6ec76e708cc09b89cf834cc2ed3045a458d501354de824cf8" style="display: none;">
<span class="collapsed-text">Thread collapsed</span>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="collapsed-indicator" id="ind-338503b768c42838d21e2987eb4b48f5e10b66fde3d0074b9010d68fea958283" style="display: none;">
<span class="collapsed-text">Thread collapsed</span>
</div>
</div>
<div class="note reply-note depth-6" id="note-6f4ff8f3afd833901b3e7451d3874ff136a3187fdf2013982d1923f076108822">
<div class="note-header">
<a href="/user/70122128273bdc07af9be7725fa5c4bc0fc146866bec38d44360dc4bc6cc18b9">
<img src="https://image.nostr.build/9aa5273e18ac177e8b833afa697b145ec0ed203b41014f8cbaa0bc2911f451c0.jpg" class="note-avatar" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
</a>
<div class="note-info">
<a href="/user/70122128273bdc07af9be7725fa5c4bc0fc146866bec38d44360dc4bc6cc18b9" class="author-link">
<span class="note-author-name" title="70122128273bdc07af9be7725fa5c4bc0fc146866bec38d44360dc4bc6cc18b9">
MichaelJ
</span>
</a>
<a href="/post/6f4ff8f3afd833901b3e7451d3874ff136a3187fdf2013982d1923f076108822" class="note-date-link" title="2024-09-12T04:26:53Z">
<span class="note-date">1y ago</span>
</a>
</div>
<button class="collapse-toggle" onclick="toggleNote('6f4ff8f3afd833901b3e7451d3874ff136a3187fdf2013982d1923f076108822')" title="Collapse/Expand">[-]</button>
</div>
<div class="note-body" id="body-6f4ff8f3afd833901b3e7451d3874ff136a3187fdf2013982d1923f076108822">
<div class="note-content">
<p>Then why does he, from the cross, entrust Mary to John's care saying to him "behold your mother," and to her "behold your son?" Was he telling John he ought to hate Mary?</p>
</div>
<div class="nested-replies limit-depth">
<div class="note reply-note depth-7" id="note-11dbf9be78294311b434c881d3bead09a23b51176bfd2d2728d32ec3aa9f8fcb">
<div class="note-header">
<a href="/user/dace63b00c42e6e017d00dd190a9328386002ff597b841eb5ef91de4f1ce8491">
<img src="https://image.nostr.build/f8b456b8de3078596ad6dcbb2a05d3c23b530af53efd8b431af8675593d4f419.gif" class="note-avatar" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
</a>
<div class="note-info">
<a href="/user/dace63b00c42e6e017d00dd190a9328386002ff597b841eb5ef91de4f1ce8491" class="author-link">
<span class="note-author-name" title="dace63b00c42e6e017d00dd190a9328386002ff597b841eb5ef91de4f1ce8491">
Marakesh π
¦
</span>
</a>
<a href="/post/11dbf9be78294311b434c881d3bead09a23b51176bfd2d2728d32ec3aa9f8fcb" class="note-date-link" title="2024-09-12T04:33:05Z">
<span class="note-date">1y ago</span>
</a>
</div>
<button class="collapse-toggle" onclick="toggleNote('11dbf9be78294311b434c881d3bead09a23b51176bfd2d2728d32ec3aa9f8fcb')" title="Collapse/Expand">[-]</button>
</div>
<div class="note-body" id="body-11dbf9be78294311b434c881d3bead09a23b51176bfd2d2728d32ec3aa9f8fcb">
<div class="note-content">
<p>No, I don't believe he's actually telling us to hate anyone, because that contradicts his commands that we love everyone. I think it was a hebraism meaning that our love for God should exceed our love for our parents or anyone else, to the point that it almost looks like we hate our parents in comparison to our love and loyalty to God. God comes first. I was being a little cheeky in my response because I don't have a good answer to your question. π
</p><p>I think Jesus committed his mother into John's care because his other brothers like James probably weren't there at the cross. But he doesn't tell John to call her "Mother Mary."</p>
</div>
</div>
<div class="collapsed-indicator" id="ind-11dbf9be78294311b434c881d3bead09a23b51176bfd2d2728d32ec3aa9f8fcb" style="display: none;">
<span class="collapsed-text">Thread collapsed</span>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="collapsed-indicator" id="ind-6f4ff8f3afd833901b3e7451d3874ff136a3187fdf2013982d1923f076108822" style="display: none;">
<span class="collapsed-text">Thread collapsed</span>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="collapsed-indicator" id="ind-578e09b6eee3c2e84e27bbb19dce8c9ab37e170d22c5bb0c735d0206e923d2a8" style="display: none;">
<span class="collapsed-text">Thread collapsed</span>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="collapsed-indicator" id="ind-5287d53b65e01c1682258426196604937bc8c0ffa737d80d7d09870cc3c576f3" style="display: none;">
<span class="collapsed-text">Thread collapsed</span>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="collapsed-indicator" id="ind-2c16d433bd7e3fa485fbf578d37fda3d133b0fb60a3b1edccf4950cbaf50455d" style="display: none;">
<span class="collapsed-text">Thread collapsed</span>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="collapsed-indicator" id="ind-5ed7961e1af090d94dec446616819b985f07d637836798fb54eb4e7a3fcaa7e3" style="display: none;">
<span class="collapsed-text">Thread collapsed</span>
</div>
</div>
<div class="note reply-note depth-2" id="note-2aad35b1f602f172984b97aaa83d9baee32b4c8c2daede533ef75c40f7687cbf">
<div class="note-header">
<a href="/user/0f4c4cc8e93a6f4f4c8f48e8e56c412e3b32ced8de79497723668fbb8fb7f2cf">
<img src="https://image.nostr.build/0f6a740c0077a05ba3daa014d91c7b60bf3075f33e9c4773dace9eb483f1620a.jpg" class="note-avatar" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
</a>
<div class="note-info">
<a href="/user/0f4c4cc8e93a6f4f4c8f48e8e56c412e3b32ced8de79497723668fbb8fb7f2cf" class="author-link">
<span class="note-author-name" title="0f4c4cc8e93a6f4f4c8f48e8e56c412e3b32ced8de79497723668fbb8fb7f2cf">
π½ππ₯πππ£ βπππ πΉππππ
</span>
</a>
<a href="/post/2aad35b1f602f172984b97aaa83d9baee32b4c8c2daede533ef75c40f7687cbf" class="note-date-link" title="2024-09-12T04:57:48Z">
<span class="note-date">1y ago</span>
</a>
</div>
<button class="collapse-toggle" onclick="toggleNote('2aad35b1f602f172984b97aaa83d9baee32b4c8c2daede533ef75c40f7687cbf')" title="Collapse/Expand">[-]</button>
</div>
<div class="note-body" id="body-2aad35b1f602f172984b97aaa83d9baee32b4c8c2daede533ef75c40f7687cbf">
<div class="note-content">
<p>Perhaps Jesus was not actually concerned about his followers being so impenetrably thick that they couldnβt tell the difference between a weak human being born to die, and the βimmortal invisible God only wiseββ¦ I would suggest that using words like βholy fatherβ in analogous senses about two such radically different orders of being is so commonplace as to not require comment or defense, and certainly creates no confusion on the part of anyone older than the age of three.</p><p>I get called Jesus and God all the time β¦ by three year olds. Everyone else just chuckles.</p><p>I also work regularly with evangelical, Bible-only Christians who want nothing to do with calling me Father. I explain to them that itβs more a reminder to me that I am called to lay down my life, as fathers must, rather than to demand blind obedience from Godβs flock. My parishioners certainly donβt obey me blindly. I invite the Sola Scriptura Christians to use the title, in that sense, as an act of charity. They always decline, so there are a few terms I suggest as alternatives. In the end, if they call me Nick, Iβm not worried about it, but I pray for an increase in brotherly love on the part of my fellow believers. π</p>
</div>
<div class="nested-replies ">
<div class="note reply-note depth-3" id="note-07d36cf076fbf1785d79b58d2101dc5ca466dfcaae8bd55e0ac005425175ffa3">
<div class="note-header">
<a href="/user/dace63b00c42e6e017d00dd190a9328386002ff597b841eb5ef91de4f1ce8491">
<img src="https://image.nostr.build/f8b456b8de3078596ad6dcbb2a05d3c23b530af53efd8b431af8675593d4f419.gif" class="note-avatar" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
</a>
<div class="note-info">
<a href="/user/dace63b00c42e6e017d00dd190a9328386002ff597b841eb5ef91de4f1ce8491" class="author-link">
<span class="note-author-name" title="dace63b00c42e6e017d00dd190a9328386002ff597b841eb5ef91de4f1ce8491">
Marakesh π
¦
</span>
</a>
<a href="/post/07d36cf076fbf1785d79b58d2101dc5ca466dfcaae8bd55e0ac005425175ffa3" class="note-date-link" title="2024-09-12T05:21:54Z">
<span class="note-date">1y ago</span>
</a>
</div>
<button class="collapse-toggle" onclick="toggleNote('07d36cf076fbf1785d79b58d2101dc5ca466dfcaae8bd55e0ac005425175ffa3')" title="Collapse/Expand">[-]</button>
</div>
<div class="note-body" id="body-07d36cf076fbf1785d79b58d2101dc5ca466dfcaae8bd55e0ac005425175ffa3">
<div class="note-content">
<p>I suppose this is similar to what Paul said about some Christians observing certain days to the Lord, and others not, also to the Lord. I would hope each side is trying to be faithful to what we believe Christ is saying. The Lord knows the heart.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div class="collapsed-indicator" id="ind-07d36cf076fbf1785d79b58d2101dc5ca466dfcaae8bd55e0ac005425175ffa3" style="display: none;">
<span class="collapsed-text">Thread collapsed</span>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="collapsed-indicator" id="ind-2aad35b1f602f172984b97aaa83d9baee32b4c8c2daede533ef75c40f7687cbf" style="display: none;">
<span class="collapsed-text">Thread collapsed</span>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="collapsed-indicator" id="ind-8efa6ca2d5d5072046d0783aade5e5c279604b1f1a8007be87293d94abe5fa40" style="display: none;">
<span class="collapsed-text">Thread collapsed</span>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="collapsed-indicator" id="ind-497ae6c440736c975cda8394875549a4fde19cd70e9f5ddb28397b6b1418edef" style="display: none;">
<span class="collapsed-text">Thread collapsed</span>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<script>
function toggleNote(noteId) {
const body = document.getElementById('body-' + noteId);
const indicator = document.getElementById('ind-' + noteId);
const toggle = document.querySelector('#note-' + noteId + ' .collapse-toggle');
if (body.style.display === 'none') {
body.style.display = 'block';
indicator.style.display = 'none';
toggle.textContent = '[-]';
} else {
body.style.display = 'none';
indicator.style.display = 'block';
toggle.textContent = '[+]';
}
}
</script>
</main>
</div>
</body>
</html> 
