If you've never coinjoined before, now is the time.
Fees are low, great value right now!
I use whirlpool via sparrow wallet.
Conjoining was officially declared legal by US courts, don't be scared
Discussion
what percentage of your stack is coinjoined?
I’m not sure why I’m hesitant to go 100%, or even close to
I am 100% coinjoined and/or no KYC
You're hesitant because you wanna make sure you can sell for fiat anon
This is the way.
err, no anon - I’m cognizant of potential legal consequences if my jurisdiction deems coinjoined/mixed coins illegal at some point in the future
don’t you dare assume I would take fiat profits on my #bitcoin
How will they know they are yours? 🤔
They wouldn't know but they could invent another dumb law that forces you to somehow proof where your once bought KYC bitcoin went. If you spent them, gave them away or lost them.
I know, "boating accident" and so on, but it wouldn't be the first law which is flawed from the ground up...
Your jurisdiction means you aren't using VPN. There are no jurisdictions in cyberspace
So, as long as there are potential legal consequences in the future you'll comply?
Then there is no point in owning Bitcoin. They can just 6102 you and make it illegal to own in the future.
legal consequences don’t imply my complicity; there is no shame in coming out in front of citizens with sats that openly belong to me and to fight the establishment
if we forever hide in the shadows, what message does that send to the wider world?
how can we ever hope to reach mass adoption if we implicitly behave like we’re always on the backfoot
we as humans have the right to free speech, and bitcoin is speech, God fucking dammit
You said you don't do something because of potential future legal consequences (not even illegal right now). So it doesn't make sense why you hold bitcoin if they can just make it illegal in the future. They already did that to gold. It makes even more sense they would do it to something as threatening to them as Bitcoin.
We also have the right to privacy enshrined in the 4th amendment. But words on paper didn't ever stop government before. I'm not going to impotently beg politicians and governments to respect my rights. We have to take our rights and make them unassailable. Privacy and anonymity via encryption are one way to do this.
Hey, I get the sentiment man. It's not about hiding in the shadows though. It's about consent. Your business is no one elses unless you want it to be.
Mass adoption doesn't concern me. Some will learn by being burned. If they need it they'll find it and use it. If someone doesn't want something you won't be able to convince them. Adoption should happen organically if your tool is valuable and useful to people.
while I agree #bitcoin presented greater threat than that of gold, I have one word: enforceability
while they could rip KYC sats from law abiding citizens, the public outcry from human rights groups and international condemnation would be - IMO - disastrous
the economic fallout of any Western nation *actually* criminalizing #bitcoin would be a neon-light pointing straight to the exit gates of that nation; even China hasn’t fully done so, and if they haven’t, the USA most likely won’t
inalienable rights have been enshrined, and the #bitcoin experiment is too far gone to squash
Governments commit atrocities all the time. They'll frame Bitcoiners as extremists or some shit if necessary, propagandize the public, and those human rights groups and other nations will fall in line for the most part like they always do. Look at the covid hysteria. Majority bought that shit up.
They don't need to be able to directly control your Bitcoin to bend your fingers. If they know you own Bitcoin they can threaten you with prison if you don't cooperate. In more extreme regimes, they can torture or kill you and your family. 99% of people will give in to that kind of duress.
That's why privacy and anonymity are both important.
what do you recommend for coinjoins?
I use whirlpool, there are maxis on both sides, I just use it because it's in sparrow already
cool thanks :)
Wasabi Wallet, BTCPay Server, and Trezor have the largest and most private coinjoins. Unlike Whirlpool, there is no common input ownership revealed, no totic change to trace, and there's no coordinator fees charged for any inputs 1m sats or lower.
thanks!
Terrible advice. Wasabi partners with chain analysis firms. They are literally helping the enemy. Not to mention their implementation of Coinjoin is flawed. https://cryptoslate.com/are-you-exposed-how-chainalysis-cracked-the-wasabi-bitcoin-privacy-wallet/
Told yah there are maxis on both sides 😂😂
Question: Do any of them offer actual privacy or refusal to feds if you don't run your own server, node, etc.? Which is better for a pleb with no self-hosting?
Wasabi is designed in a way that the client does not trust the backend. No sensitive information is ever revealed: no xpub, no IP, no common input / output, etc.
Even if the wabisabi coordinator is run by an active adversary, the client should protect you. (those are bold claims, Wasabi is still WIP, and this architecture goal is bloody difficult to build)
yes you did😂😂😂
Whirlpool is flawed because it produces toxic change and reveals common input ownership.
If your claim that Wasabi's implementation is flawed, why don't you prove it showing everyone where this this 1 BTC input that was traced through Whirlpool went once it entered the WabiSabi coinjoin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5453744.msg62925293#msg62925293
wasabi pays snitch chain analysis
What do you do to buy stuff at the store in Canada? Prepaid visa?
heard some coinjoined coins cannot be received by certain wallets by policy
Good, we need those cucked wallets to die fast by not receiving Bitcoin
Okay ill be honest what's the point of coinjoins? I'm a stupid pleb that has a hard time understanding concepts.....what is the use case for coinjoins??
Your usage of bitcoin is publicly viewable. If you have a bitcoin address attached to your identity, such as if you bought from a KYC exchange, then the Feds and anybody else can and do see the contents of your wallet and all of your spends. They actively look for it, trying to attach this information to your identity.
Conjoins break the links so they can't trace your bitcoin back to you.
Okay see put this way it makes sense why people would use coinjoins. You don't need uncle sam looking over your shoulder all the time. I like this. Thanks nick
1) Privacy for future payments. If u dont coinjoin your btc, especially if you bought from an exchange, its clear who is using the bitcoin.
2) if u dont coinjoin and make a purchase with your btc and its all in one utxo...then someone can see all your past payments and how much btc you have. Coinjoining rids this paper trail.
Thanks Brian that makes alot of sense actually.
Gratitude from a fellow stupid pleb 😆 for asking the question!
😂 I was always told there aren't stupid questions just stupid people...I'm willing to take one for the team.
Officially legal?
Take a dip in the pool, wash away any nasty deterministic links. Emerge renewed. 🌀
Should UTXOs be consolidated before coinjoin or after? My risk averse side thinks doing it after would be better. Does it change the fees?
Better not, any single user multi input transaction is pretty bad for your privacy.
Thankfully Wasabi's post-coinjoin transactions have the lowest average consolidation count, because of efficient amount decomposition.
Here we go again.
Run joinmarket. Be your own coinjoin.
Unpopular opinion:
Coinjoining is not something to proceed with unless you are willing to do a lot of research and understand what you are doing, and what the best practices are.
Failing to do so will likely result in burning a lot of sats in fees for no privacy gain whatsoever.
You also have to realize that the other people coinjoining with you might compromise their privacy in a way that makes it more clear who owns what.
I'm not saying it's not worth doing, but be aware that it's not a push button solution without any other considerations.
That's the difference between coinjoined BTC and Monero.
Monero's privacy protects me regardless of all wrongdoings in the past, the now and the future of myself and all others.
Agree. Many caveats and pitfalls. Better than nothing though. BitcoinQnA one of the best guides to Bitcoin privacy. Prepare to read!
https://bitcoiner.guide/privacy/
Also, here are some additional weaknesses of coinjoins.
https://localmonero.co/knowledge/ring-signatures-vs-coinjoin
I would have agreed with you in the past, but Wasabi simply works by default in the background, there is no learning curve or complexities.
Receive, wait, send.
Privately.
It's as easy as that with Wasabi.