Discussion
There's no advantage to use bitcoin nowadays if you are cypherpunk
Growing purchasing power isnāt an advantage?
it is shrinking
vs inflation
tech shares
and compared to other cryptocurrencies
How is bitcoin purchasing power shrinking? Itās literally at an all time high right now while inflation is coming down
"Improve" your purchasing power from a crypto which has been proved part of the financial establishment rather than an anti-establishment money is not an advantage, at least not from a cypherpunk perspective. That's why I choose XMR over BTC
Thereās still an advantage to saving in bitcoin and then spending in monero if you prefer to use monero p2p
Not from a cypherpunk perspective as I said
Cypherpunks who have more purchasing power donāt have an advantage? Even if they use monero p2p?
The cypherpunks / cryptoanarchists top priority is have privacy and anonymity, not become rich from a speculative cryptocurrency that is not fungible and don't have privacy at all
How is it not fungible? You guys keep saying that but no one is giving a reason why.
Every BTC has a publicly visible history, that makes some coins "tainted" and AML tools reject them or you will get into trouble for things previous owners of your BTC did, for example, gambling or darknet markets.
This also affects many BTC you buy on P2P platforms.
Hi, would you mind telling me which wallet do you use for receiving and sending sats, plz?
i use several different wallets on phone and desktop
So, I imagine a mixture of custodial and self-custodial wallets then. Im just wanting to decide for a beginner like me, using a custodial wallet wonāt hurt much.
Custodial wallets make lazy. If you start custodial you'll keep it that way until you lose it.
Alrighty. Thanks for getting back to me!
the provider of the custodial wallets sees and stores all your transactions, exactly like a bank. Furhermore, they know the address you funded your custodial wallet from - so they can also analyze what you did with your coins in the past. You have zero privacy when you use custodial wallets.
If you want fungibility and privacy, BTC is not what you want to use.
Thank you. In that case, the so called āsilent paymentā option for Bitcoin transactions in Cake Wallet is just āprivacyā in name, not in function?
There's plenty of evidence that BTC is not fungible https://stacker.news/items/926959
This is talking about Bitcoin exchanges blocking certain utxos. Many exchanges block all monero. Whats the difference?
You already answered, some bitcoin is treated different than others, while all Monero is treated the same
So blocking all monero on exchanges and being forced to use it p2p is fungible but blocking some bitcoin on exchanges and being forced to use it p2p is not fungible?
being able to differentiate between units and selectively block shows it IS NOT fungibile, that is correct š
a CEX unilaterally deciding to not accept because *it cant differentiate between units* shows you that it IS fungibile.
utxos with different histories are nonfungible
a transparent ledger doesn't only transmit value
it also de facto transmits reputation
How are those certain utxos not fungible?
theyre not fungibile because their different histories are known
So if the history is known, then the bitcoin canāt be spent from the utxo?
if the history is known, it is de facto nonfungible with another utxo with a different history. even if they have the same value.
to jump to the end
the "the network doesnt care" reductionism is not impressive.
that just indicates maxis are unwilling to actually look at the network in the context of how it is actually used.
So if the utxo history is known, then the blockchain will never mine it for future spending?
whatever prospect a utxo has in the mempool doesn't have anything to do with its fungibility.
if somebody can differentiate between units it is not fungibile.
its very simple.
You can differentiate between dollars and gold bars too. They have serial numbers. Are gold and dollars not fungible?
in practice, USD bills are fungible despite the serial numbers.
but if the movement of a bill was published to an online database anyone with a web browser could audit,
then it would no longer be fungible.
Thatās what Iām trying to say regarding bitcoin p2p. Until certain Bitcoin transactions are completely censored on the base chain, what practical difference does it make if some are not accepted on exchanges? I hope more bitcoin is blocked on exchanges so people will use it p2p. Fuck exchanges and all their kyc bullshit.
Side note: I do expect a large scale censorship attack to happen at some point on bitcoin and I believe the fee market is what will determine censorship resistance. As the incentive to mine āillegalā utxos grows, I believe miners will take on the risk of breaking compliance. I also think itās encouraging to see that ocean is allowing miners to build their own templates and decentralize mining.
hang about, the conversation was about fungibility.
whether it's accepted or not on a CEX is just an indicator of its fungibility (or lack thereof). thats the only reason it came up.
i agree about the mining and censorship resistance and am excited to see how it plays out.
but the point was that they can selectively decide WHAT txs to attempt to censor because Bitcoin isn't fungible.
whereas with Monero the only option is to delist the whole thing (because its fungible and selective censorship isnt possible)
Right but Iām saying that it hasnāt been proven that there is any practical difference between utxos on the main chain. Until a utxo is effectively censored on the main chain, I donāt see how bitcoin is not fungible.
Let me illustrate with an example. You mentioned that physical dollars are fungible but digital dollars are not. And I know you are aware that they have serial numbers so they can be traced. If those dollars are blacklisted based on their serial numbers, banks will reject them. But you can still use them p2p. So are dollars fungible?
like I said, whether its actively being censored by miners or not doesn't make it fungible or not.
its whether you CAN differentiate between units or not that makes it fungible.
so according to your example, those bills are not fungibile.
like a cop drama with the invisible ink that marks the stolen money or whatever. those bills lose their fungible quality.
*it doesn't matter whether the counterparty accepts them or not*
they can be identified as different than another bill of the same denomination.
therefore not fungibile.
unfortunately ALL Bitcoin utxos have tracked serial numbers.
So in your opinion, monero is fungible but bitcoin, dollars, and gold are not fungible?
bills that are marked (or have their serial numbers listed and checked ) are not fungible.
banks generally dont check the serial numbers when you make a deposit so most cash remains fungible.
units of gold are readily interchangeable afaik.
units of #monero can be distinguished in certain circumstances. there was the MOrdinals thing for a second, those were nonfungible. if wallet data is available to The Adversary it can effect fungibility.
so like cash or gold, in certain situations certain units of monero can lose their fungibility.
on #Bitcoin everything is wide open and anyone can see tx flows. units of equal value are readily distinguished from each other.
therefore not fungible.
except in situations like Whirlpool, where the set of those utxos are *fungible with each other* but are NOT fungible with other nonWhirlpool utxos.
anarcho capitalist
like milei
How is bitcoin not fungible?
study fungibility
I already did. Youāre the only person Iāve ever seen make this claim.
nostr:nprofile1qqs936kc97s4k4gqjnmltljgqns0uadh08d77t5mypg3anxkneks37gpzemhxue69uhhsmtj9e6hxetwdaehgu3wdaexwqg4waehxw309ahx7um5wgh8smtj9eex7cmtwvq3kamnwvaz7tmwdaehgu3wwphhyar9d4hkuetjduhxxmmdhdhm8r has also made this claim.
Interesting but these are talking about exchanges refusing certain bitcoin utxos. Why is bitcoin not fungible if an exchange wonāt take certain utxos but monero is still fungible even though a lot of exchanges completely blocked all monero?
because they dont reject the monero because they can differentiate between moneroj
they refuse it because they CANT differentiate
ie, they refuse it because it is fungibile and cant do chainanalysis on it
They can do analysis on monero. With enough resources you can do analysis on anything. Sure the analysis is easier on Bitcoin but they can still do it.
Are there any utxos that have been blocked by miners and prevented from spending?
that's not an argument for bitcoins fungibility. its just "well maybe with enough examination a monero tx isn't fungible either"
which is true and is why monero still iterates to improve the protocol.
beyond Mara mining OFAC-compliant blocks for a sec I'm not aware of any specific mining level censorship. why?
Mara and plenty of other miners can and will choose to censor certain utxos. My question is, have any utxos been effectively rendered worthless because ALL miners or most of the hash rate has banned it?
I dunno man.
its got nothing to do with the conversation.
fungibility and censorship resistance are related topics,
but theyre not the same thing.
and if mining censorship doesn't exist that doesn't prove fungibility.
Ask the SDNY why Bitcoin isn't allowed to be fungible.
#FreeSamourai
Does the SDNY control enough mining power to effectively block bitcoin transactions from the blockchain?
No but they shut down Whirlpool.
Whirlpool did an amazing job of making Bitcoin fungible.
Yes they did. We need a more decentralized tool.
But so far the censorship has mostly been enforced by exchanges. Transacting p2p is still fine. Which is similar to the state of monero in that you mostly have to use it p2p because exchanges have completely banned it.
I agree KYC exchanges are the worst.
P2P FTW