If the swaps are liquid enough, I predict monero will become a de facto L2 for each passing day.
It also opens another way to acquire non-kyc sats: first acquire monero using LocalMonero (lower fees) until you accumulate enough to justify paying bitcoin on-chain fees when doing an atomic swap-in.
The future is bright.
It doesn’t scale though - even worse than Bitcoin L1
Who cares? Just use what works instead of crying
here is an excellent article on what monero is doing to address scalability
https://www.wales247.co.uk/how-monero-is-addressing-scalability-and-network-congestion-issues
also, this interview with artic mine is short but it gets to the point
Who cares if it is more centralised than BTC? There is still BTC for Max decentralisation. Use both.
Also I'd argue that Monero is currently more decentralised than BTC. And tokenomics with lower inflation and lower supply is also in it's favour. So why it can not be also used as a store of value (other than some risk of an undiscovered inflation bug, I can easily hedge myself against with BTC) is beyond me.
I didn’t even say anything about decentralization. I said it scales even worse than Bitcoin L1, which makes swaps between the layers highly inefficient and impractical.
But now that you mention it, it’s lack of decentralization, it’s lack of quick final settlement, and it’s risk of inflation bugs combined with its tail emissions all make it worse money than Bitcoin.
I wasn't arguing over which one is the best money.
Neither was I 🤣 I had just pointed out that the scaling limitations of both make swaps between them highly inefficient
That's nonsense. Efficiency only matter if blockspace is exhausted.
You're worried about scaling when monero fees are fractions of a cent.
I think that we need Bitcoin native privacy solutions. I understand that currently monero has very low usage, but it’s even more inefficient than Bitcoin L1 in terms of data per transaction and throughput, which means that it would hit limits very quickly if people actually wanted to use it.
Advocating for monero/Bitcoin atomic swaps as a privacy or payments tool doesn’t seem reasonable to me, for a variety of reasons, but that is one of the main ones.
You're worried about scaling because you think 8b people might be "on boarded" over night. You're an idealist.
The pragmatists just want to use what works today and also maximizes their privacy.
IMO, the way towards freedom is realism, not "hope".
Bitcoin scales better *if you're doing completely transparent transactions*. Apples to oranges.
-Not decentralized? ~22,500 visible nodes and literally anyone can mine.
-Final settlement standard is 10 confs = 20 mins -VS- Bitcoin 3 confs = 30 mins
-Tail emission (less than gold, so scary), dynamic blocksize (cheap fees), and inflation bug risk (because we actually get strong privacy and fungibility for that trade) are better if the goal is digital cash
Your probabilistic final settlement compared to Bitcoin is closer to 10 days
My whole point was just that in the same way that blockchains like liquid aren’t good scaling solutions, using monero as a Bitcoin swap isn’t a very good long term privacy solution.
It’s not a hill I’ll die on and I’ve been told I’m thinking a bit too idealistically, but I’d really like to see the continued advancement of private lightning and ecash instead of normalizing shitcoin swaps.
I knew you were going to link this website.
If you notice almost none of those cryptos use the same PoW algo. A direct comparison like this makes no sense. It's like saying a person that weighs 80kg weighs less than 130lbs
Ecash has great privacy, but sacrifices the main value props of Bitcoin; freedom from seigniorage, custodians, and censorship. If you want to retain those things, AND have great privacy, Monero does
Even though I have my criticisms of current Bitcoin L2s, I always think the more options the better and everyone can choose what makes sense to their situation
I certainly agree with your last paragraph, and I do agree that the metric is a bit flawed and not apples to apples directly. But I think it’s certainly relevant that Monero developers chose to prioritize consumer grade mining over security.
Even if I cannot take 1% of the hash of the Bitcoin network and use it to mine RandomX, a sophisticated player could certainly take a CPU farm and mine it. And the amount of energy required to reverse hours, or even days of monero transactions is tiny compared to the amount it would take on Bitcoin.
Ultimately, people are free to do as they wish. I want to try and create a world with as many people as possible under the economic consensus of 21M, and therefore I will always advocate for building privacy on Bitcoin layers instead of doing shitcoin swaps.
At this stage, maybe a sophisticated player could, but not without first diverting resources away from their current intended purposes and considering the opportunity cost. Its not like those servers are just sitting around doing nothing. Any botnets are also competing always in flux with other botnets to do the same.
ASICs also have many flaws...
-ASICs can't match the ubiquity and accessibility of CPU mining which is more conducive to decentralization.
-Ostensibly harder to attack, but if successful, much harder to deploy new ASICs to fight back since they're in such short supply
-Large concentrated mining farms are easy to co-opt and regulate for governments.
-Heat, noise, and energy draw make ASIC mining obvious in general
-Everyone knows what you're doing with that ASIC miner
-Over half the hashpower now requires KYC
-No p2pool. Stratumv2 helps but isn't sufficient. Large pool operators control payout.
-Targeted censorship possible
I want to use the best tools for the job. Whatever carries the original spirit. I have no loyalty towards an individual coin or name just for it's own sake.
+1
I promise you that this will never get enough liquidity to work well. Not to forget that the use case is bullshit. No one how wants to save money in bitcoin thinks: “okay let me store my hard earned money in Monero for some months before I change it in the asset I actually want to but”
Why not? People do that with dollars already.
So I swap my dollars so that I can swap them again after a certain amount of time. It’s hilarious how hard monero tries to find a use case.
Your dollars are permissoned, custodial and traced. Monero is not.
That's not the point. The point is, people want btc for example, but the fee is high, so they wait and save dollars. You can do that with anything. I'm pointing out that your reasoning is flawed.
Monero has a use case, peer to peer digital cash. What's the use case of Bitcoin?
Sure bro. It’s losing value against bitcoin and people are constantly swapping 😂
Hilarious indeed. You mean like the darknet markets, and silent.link / shopinbit sales?
As it stands now, the market has chosen: Bitcoin for SoV, Monero for digital cash.
Only an idealogue can argue that Bitcoin, with its poor onchain privacy and high fees, beats #monero at $0.01/tx with nearly perfect privacy+anonymity.
I'm more than happy seeing either one improve at either role and GIVE PEOPLE CHOICES, because to me Bitcoin is neither religion nor football club.
Don't be an idealogue. Ideologies make people blind to the truth, and being blind to the truth makes one ignorant.
Funny that you have a lightning address where people can send you bitcoin in no time for nearly no fees. Which makes your complete argument invalid. 😂😂😂
Nearly no fees ***as long as onchain fees are low***
It costs half a cent to transact on Monero. You would think a big Bitcoin stacker like yourself could afford that.
And what does any of this have to do with privacy?
You're aren't even using lightning! You're on Wallet of Satoshi like 95% of LN users because sovereign UX sucks and you know it!
The only thing we can be fanatical about is FREEDOM!
It shows you probably don't stack bitcoin p2p noncustodially.
In fact I do regularly! Just stop stacking 10$ every day and stack 300$ per month. I don’t see why I should buy a shitcoin first
With 300 you're still paying over 10℅ in on-chain fees ans creating sub 1M utxos which are not even good enough for the 1M pool mix and might be dust in the near future.
You answered your own question by saying "you don't know why...."
The people that know the true use case for this are happy to see potentially a massive privacy problem solved
This is not about "making money" i.e number go up. It, instead, gives Samourai Whirlpool users an option to deal with tx0 doxxic change for instance, which in the end is all about being able to spend money privately, non-custodially, permission-less-ly, without traces. Every tx0 change output can still be deterministically linked to your pre-mix coin history (source: https://docs.samourai.io/en/faq#what-is-doxxic-change). Every Monero transaction is untraceable and you can immediately spend it. So there is definitely a use case there, the same way in the opposite direction, a Monero whale seller may buy a bunch of different small tx0 change outputs and merge them into a new whirpool mix in order to benefit from btc's liquidity's market (as explained in https://bitcoiner.guide/doxxic/ on how to deal with change).
Saving in Monero for the future may incur in loss of purchasing power as Monero suffers from price suppression and exchange delistings due to it's anonymity enhancing nature but also users can still "save" it as a tool to spend in the future as the price has shown significant stability over the years nonetheless
Well said. I think this guy is just unaware of our use cases and has that newer bitcoiner perspective where he thinks he fits into the crowd by just randomly blurting out "shitcoiner".
I'm certainly happy paying a premium or taking a small loss for my own privacy spending.
Either way, this is great for monero users and bitcoiners 😎
Do you ever use Bitcoin privately? Do you use Bitcoin at all? Doesn't seem like it
Monero is great for small accumulation over time before swapping to BTC or swapping out your toxic change
XMRBTC swings either way if were talking about a time scale of months
How do I know this and a price obsessed maxi like yourself doesn't?🤦♂️
I think this is a bit optimistic for Bitcoin. There is no justification for the on chain fees and they'll only get worse. Something can only be used to store value if it can also be used to transfer value. At some point someone saving up $10k worth of Monero will ask why even swap to Bitcoin in the first place.
Because bitcoin is and will probably will always be the best SoV
+1
