Subnostr

Imagine having to worry about penalty timeouts every 2 weeks just to make sure your money doesn't go *poof* lmao. What a pain in the ass. Once your transaction is confirmed on Monero or Bitcoin it is final.

LN doesn't hide reciever and amounts, neither obfuscate IP.

If the protocol isn't private by default, most won't use it that way, just like Bitcoin.

If you don't use large routing nodes your LN transactions are much more likely to fail. And now you are just adding more friction and barriers for casual users. If you want to fullfill your global money prophecy the average person has to be able to simply use it.

Remember, all these problems are the self-custodial way of using LN. I didn't even mention that 90% of LN users are using closed source, custodial wallets like Wallet of Satoshi because using LN in any sovereign manner is such a hassle.

Boris 2y ago

Lightning has two main applications - every day payments and adding privacy to your BTC funds. Neither of them implies storing it for long time without using. In first case you use it every day and notice a malicious force close (which my node which is not small detected only one time during several years and it was a mistake, not a malicious action). In the second case you open a channel, tunnel the funds through the network and you are done - you store new unrelated coins onchain for long time.

Hiding IP is a separate task. You can do it on your own, LND and bitcoind both support working behind Tor and using onion sites for incoming connections.

Regarding using closed source apps, it is not because of lightning. Majority stores other cryptos on centralised exchanges. It happens, because it is beneficial for the custodians who get all the coins, so they can invest into development and promotion of their products. While Devs of self-custody wallets, e.g. Simple Bitcoin Wallet, receive small funding and can not promote as aggressively as big guys do.

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Discussion

Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

The point is the potential for rugging is there, while on Bitcoin and Monero it is not.

Like I said if privacy is not default it will overwhelmingly not be used that way. For a clear example, look no further than Bitcoin.

Also, your strategy of always swapping back and forth between onchain and LN defeats the entire purpose of cheap and quick transactions.

Okay. You've given me an addtional reason *why* ~90% of LN usage is custodial, but that doesn't change the fact that it *is* this way.

LN will never make Bitcoin, as a whole, fungible either. Another topic, but I doubt we'll ever come to an agreement.

Boris 2y ago

I better have a very small chance of being robbed in one of my channels because of my own mistakes, than a chance of monero holding being diluted by a fork or just in general go down in price (because all supplimentary monetary assets go down compared to main asset, because of system effects - look at EUR/USD or silver/gold).

Yes, you can not force privacy on bitcoiners who don't want it, neither on anybody. Such folks can store monero in custodial exchange with full kyc and transfer it between each other without privacy. While those who want privacy, will find a way in both BTC and monero.

Don't confuse privacy and small payment scenarios of LN. Those who use it for small payments, don't necessarily want privacy and it's fine. They don't need to move it back onchain, because that is not their goal. The advantage over monero is still that we who want privacy can hide between many folks who use it for small payments and fee reductions. And if asked why we use LN, we can always say that it is for fee reductions. So it has more potential of being listed in major exchanges. Good coverage. Remember that the best privacy is steganography, when you hide not only the essential information, but also the fact, that you have stollen it.