Nowadays only by Monerobros.
The trade offs are better privacy versus guaranteed supply - optimising for the former is great if you only want to buy drugs with your money, you need the latter to avoid the fuckery with supply, an actual element of scaling that they don’t bother acknowledging because they like other shitcoiners only consider technical scaling rather than social.
Yeah valid point thank you.
i mean kinda
monero has provable supply.
its more complicated to prove and that additional complexity could be a concern.
theres a lot of nuance but I'll leave it at that.
but meanwhile there are new exploits discovered on LN implementations like every month that effect privacy or access to funds.
maybe not exploits that involve loss of funds (but sometimes!)
also exploits that could tie them up and make them difficult to claim onchain.
homie will never mention that because for whatever reason he just wants people to use it.
i contend LN will likely be a good privacy layer in another few years
but its still basically beta software right now.
Lightning’s flaws are well known, I’m not going to deny them.
And no Monero does not have provable supply. That’s the trade off you get for your privacy - you cannot know.
Thus Monero’s inability to be money for the masses is less understood. Its advocates just push their privacy agenda and ignore that it will never become global money because no-one can trust issuance and that it hasn’t been or won’t in future be diluted.
Anyone pushing Monero is pissing into the wind. They’re wasting people with a real agenda’s time just because they want to be able to buy their weed anonymously.
It’s childish and pathetic and there’s good reason I just mute them all. Monerobros are over in the corner fighting the Oompa Loompas whilst Bitcoiners try to take down Leviathan - thanks for your help, retards.
you are just incorrect re supply guarentees.
and I'll explain why if you're interested.
but not feeling hopeful.
Bitcoineirs are working WITH the Leviathan, hence Trump and El Salvador and "bitcoin strategic reserves"
meanwhile monero is making it so governments cannot exist, and getting banned for it. We are not the same. It may start with weed, like bitcoin did with silk road, but it ends in the total death of tyranny :dismantle: :black: :ancap_gadsden:
Ask BTC Sessions how those transparent and traceable Bitcoin donations to the Canadian truckers faired against the leviathan.
"Knock knock, it's your friendly neighborhood leviathan! Thanks for the coins! And thanks for making it so easy for us! HFSP!"
>"optimising for the former is great if you only want to buy drugs with your money"
Lol, love how you anti-goverment guys now adopt the repeated government slogan about privacy. I know you don't really believe that though otherwise you guys wouldn't be trying to improve Bitcoins privacy in the first place with Lightning and other layers (or use a nym online - what are you a criminal?).
Privacy with your money has been the default for most of human history. Complete transparency on all your transactions is the weird unprecedented thing here.
And if you want to buy drugs with your money, so what? That's up to you to take on those risks and no one elses business.
I don’t have a problem with you buying drugs.
But optimising for privacy at the expense of unknown supply makes Monero infeasible for anything other than black markets. That’s literally it’s only usecase - short term, in and out, get your drugs and get rid of your shitcoin.
You’re not disrupting fiat and separating money and state with that.
Privacy is a nice to have but in terms of properties of good money which CAN separate money and state it’s not even in the top 5 and yet you idiot Monerobros have 100% optimised around it.
The reason your network grows so slowly is not exchange de-listings, it’s because no-one can trust their share of the network and this it WILL NEVER SCALE SOCIALLY.
You clowns really might be the most autistic retards of the entire crypto space with your complete inability to understand the social aspects of money as a technology and instead doubling and tripling down on your antisocial privacy element. Truly stupid.
The irony is exchange delistings made it stronger, it's tx count is growing while btc's is decreasing, closing the gap everyday, it has been appreciating versus BTC for the past few months
It seems Monero people have the complete ability to understand the social aspects of money as a technology and it's privacy guarantees plus wide adoption across dark web markets and other clearnet sources has made it grow consistently even without the help of 1) corporations 2) exchanges or 3) governments, and this trend will only continue due to the SOCIAL aspect.
https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/transactions-btc-xmr.html#log&3y
does that graphic include L2 Bitcoin transactions?
Fair enough that's good for it at very specific places. The overall market is still Bitcoins, which is preferred- while still coming in useful at 'gray markets'.
People feel comfortable spending their XMR and need to move out of it real quick. The NgU stops people from spending BTC because we still remember spending bunch of it for online goods that are now 100x more today and that hurts a little.
Additionally Bitcoin goes through very cold periods, including now where transaction numbers get really down but pick back up, and speculation or just HODLing are use cases whether anyone likes it or not.
i contend that if you DON'T help pay for network security
you are not a user of the network.
hodlers dont pay for network security.
they ride for free and are therefore not "users."
I get what you’re saying about running a node, spending sats, etc, but this is an orchestra, not a solo, the very act of hodling has knock on effects that incentivize hardware and software that help secure the network.
Trace Mayer’s “hodler of last resort” principle also sets a base price, you could argue that this establishes a price floor that also prevents everyone from abandoning ship altogether.
Hodlers are important, their payment is through tenacious resolve.
This is what closing the gap looks like huh?
Yeah you’re clearly smoking way too much drugs, which I guess isn’t a surprise when that is all your money is good for.
By all means go have a drug economy. Maybe the cartels will go on a Monero standard, wouldn’t that be something?! 
I'm in favor of 'black market' drug economies for btc.
And there are.
> The trade offs are better privacy versus guaranteed supply
This isn't a necessary tradeoff anymore. Lightning offers better privacy than you can get on monero but still has an auditable supply.
Lightning transactions actually encrypt the sender, recipient, and full amount paid via its adaptation of the onion messaging protocol, the same tech that makes tor work.
Monero transactions do not encrypt the sender but merely obscure them in a set of 16 "candidates." They also don't encrypt the recipient but use "stealth addresses" that are subject to a similar "shared input heuristic" as chain analysts use to trace the bitcoin blockchain. And while monero transactions do encrypt the amount paid, they do not encrypt the "full" amount -- they leave the mining fee unencrypted. That might not sound like a big deal, but watch this chainalysis video about how they trace monero:
https://v.nostr.build/D4Nzp22vRF35IRnz.mp4
They make it clear that the fee paid reveals "fingerprinting" information about the type of wallet used, including whether the sender was a normal user, an exchange, or a miner.
If you want decent privacy, you're better off using bitcoin on lightning than you are with monero.
"Lightning has reasonable privacy if you run your own node and do your own channel management"
fixed it for you
Why do you always fail to mention that most people aren't using Lightning that way thanks to it's horrid UX?
90% are using custodians/LSPs that can see everything they do. And potentially rogue employees, hackers, and governments. Data leaks for centralized databases happen constantly I'm sure you know this.
Also, yes please watch the video:
"I'm going to explain why I think Monero is super cool. It really is the frontline of the arms race between cryptographers and investigators like us...Monero has an incredible developer team they are always looking for weaknesses in their privacy protocols, and so they're really proactive in making their protocol the most secure and private that it can be. So theres just really interesting things happning here cryptographically and so that means we also have to do interesting things to *try* and track it."
"I'm not feeling super confident about this"
"It appears"
"We believe"
"If you are a privacy advocate, then Monero is really objectively better than Bitcoin"
"At a certain, randomly selected point, a node will choose to start spreading a tx all around in the network. So if you are receiving it at that later stage, you have no idea whether that IP address you're receiving it from is the same IP address that it came from and in fact, it is very likely that it is not. The initiator's IP address is essentially invisible to you. [...] A lot of how we do our monero tracing involves IP observation of services. [...] Dandelion has made that impossible."
They basically only managed to trace this person because of the combination of connecting to a chainalaysis node to broadcast their transactions, coordinated with exchanges, and didn't hide their IP address.
Who would've thought one could be so careless and have this happen to them? It's a real head scratcher 🤔🤷♂️
> Why do you always fail to mention that most people aren't using Lightning that way thanks to it's horrid UX?
Because it's irrelevant
Saying "Lightning isn't more private than monero because most people don't use lightning's privacy features" is just as irrelevant as saying "Monero isn't more private than bitcoin because most people don't use monero at all"
sorry
defaults matter.
and those two statements are NOT equivalent.
one says that UX hurdles prevent users from achieving privacy. which can be true for any tool and is a big problem for noncustodial LN.
the second statement is just some bullshit you made up.
Exactly. Look no further than Signal vs PGP for the importance of UX and defaults.
hes got this unfortunate habit of reinterpreting what was said to him,
and arguing that rather than what was actually said.
ie
you didn't say "LN isnt more private than monero because most people dont use its privacy features"
saying most people *dont actually use it in a private way*
is different than
"it isn't private"
but understandably he doesn't want to own up to the shitty UX and hassle of using LN privately.
Saying Lightning is super private is irrelevant if no one uses it that way in the real world because of it's bad sovereign UX.
>"Lightning isn't more private than monero because most people don't use lightning's privacy features"
I'm not saying that though.
I'm saying the average user is way better off using Monero than Lightning for their privacy because they're not going to deal with the 237 hoops you do to use it privately. They're going to download Wallet of Satoshi.
What are the risks of using an LSP exactly?
Vast majority are custodial.
LSPs users are pretty minor in comparison but carry similar issues (minus ability to get rugged)
Your transactions can be censored and privacy implications.
This is absolutely ancient fud
Monero has guarenteed supply.
its crazy but in the modern age,
you can prove *something* is true without knowing the *values* of what you're proving.
