It’s not something I’m ready to ignore. I have a lot of questions.
Is the transparency, trade offs, lightening network vs Monero discussed anywhere else? Anywhere with a wider audience?
Discussion
Nowadays only by Monerobros.
The trade offs are better privacy versus guaranteed supply - optimising for the former is great if you only want to buy drugs with your money, you need the latter to avoid the fuckery with supply, an actual element of scaling that they don’t bother acknowledging because they like other shitcoiners only consider technical scaling rather than social.
Yeah valid point thank you.
i mean kinda
monero has provable supply.
its more complicated to prove and that additional complexity could be a concern.
theres a lot of nuance but I'll leave it at that.
but meanwhile there are new exploits discovered on LN implementations like every month that effect privacy or access to funds.
maybe not exploits that involve loss of funds (but sometimes!)
also exploits that could tie them up and make them difficult to claim onchain.
homie will never mention that because for whatever reason he just wants people to use it.
i contend LN will likely be a good privacy layer in another few years
but its still basically beta software right now.
Lightning’s flaws are well known, I’m not going to deny them.
And no Monero does not have provable supply. That’s the trade off you get for your privacy - you cannot know.
Thus Monero’s inability to be money for the masses is less understood. Its advocates just push their privacy agenda and ignore that it will never become global money because no-one can trust issuance and that it hasn’t been or won’t in future be diluted.
Anyone pushing Monero is pissing into the wind. They’re wasting people with a real agenda’s time just because they want to be able to buy their weed anonymously.
It’s childish and pathetic and there’s good reason I just mute them all. Monerobros are over in the corner fighting the Oompa Loompas whilst Bitcoiners try to take down Leviathan - thanks for your help, retards.
you are just incorrect re supply guarentees.
and I'll explain why if you're interested.
but not feeling hopeful.
Bitcoineirs are working WITH the Leviathan, hence Trump and El Salvador and "bitcoin strategic reserves"
meanwhile monero is making it so governments cannot exist, and getting banned for it. We are not the same. It may start with weed, like bitcoin did with silk road, but it ends in the total death of tyranny :dismantle: :black: :ancap_gadsden:
Ask BTC Sessions how those transparent and traceable Bitcoin donations to the Canadian truckers faired against the leviathan.
"Knock knock, it's your friendly neighborhood leviathan! Thanks for the coins! And thanks for making it so easy for us! HFSP!"
> The trade offs are better privacy versus guaranteed supply
This isn't a necessary tradeoff anymore. Lightning offers better privacy than you can get on monero but still has an auditable supply.
Lightning transactions actually encrypt the sender, recipient, and full amount paid via its adaptation of the onion messaging protocol, the same tech that makes tor work.
Monero transactions do not encrypt the sender but merely obscure them in a set of 16 "candidates." They also don't encrypt the recipient but use "stealth addresses" that are subject to a similar "shared input heuristic" as chain analysts use to trace the bitcoin blockchain. And while monero transactions do encrypt the amount paid, they do not encrypt the "full" amount -- they leave the mining fee unencrypted. That might not sound like a big deal, but watch this chainalysis video about how they trace monero:
https://v.nostr.build/D4Nzp22vRF35IRnz.mp4
They make it clear that the fee paid reveals "fingerprinting" information about the type of wallet used, including whether the sender was a normal user, an exchange, or a miner.
If you want decent privacy, you're better off using bitcoin on lightning than you are with monero.
"Lightning has reasonable privacy if you run your own node and do your own channel management"
fixed it for you
Why do you always fail to mention that most people aren't using Lightning that way thanks to it's horrid UX?
90% are using custodians/LSPs that can see everything they do. And potentially rogue employees, hackers, and governments. Data leaks for centralized databases happen constantly I'm sure you know this.
Also, yes please watch the video:
"I'm going to explain why I think Monero is super cool. It really is the frontline of the arms race between cryptographers and investigators like us...Monero has an incredible developer team they are always looking for weaknesses in their privacy protocols, and so they're really proactive in making their protocol the most secure and private that it can be. So theres just really interesting things happning here cryptographically and so that means we also have to do interesting things to *try* and track it."
"I'm not feeling super confident about this"
"It appears"
"We believe"
"If you are a privacy advocate, then Monero is really objectively better than Bitcoin"
"At a certain, randomly selected point, a node will choose to start spreading a tx all around in the network. So if you are receiving it at that later stage, you have no idea whether that IP address you're receiving it from is the same IP address that it came from and in fact, it is very likely that it is not. The initiator's IP address is essentially invisible to you. [...] A lot of how we do our monero tracing involves IP observation of services. [...] Dandelion has made that impossible."
They basically only managed to trace this person because of the combination of connecting to a chainalaysis node to broadcast their transactions, coordinated with exchanges, and didn't hide their IP address.
Who would've thought one could be so careless and have this happen to them? It's a real head scratcher 🤔🤷♂️
> Why do you always fail to mention that most people aren't using Lightning that way thanks to it's horrid UX?
Because it's irrelevant
Saying "Lightning isn't more private than monero because most people don't use lightning's privacy features" is just as irrelevant as saying "Monero isn't more private than bitcoin because most people don't use monero at all"
sorry
defaults matter.
and those two statements are NOT equivalent.
one says that UX hurdles prevent users from achieving privacy. which can be true for any tool and is a big problem for noncustodial LN.
the second statement is just some bullshit you made up.
Exactly. Look no further than Signal vs PGP for the importance of UX and defaults.
hes got this unfortunate habit of reinterpreting what was said to him,
and arguing that rather than what was actually said.
ie
you didn't say "LN isnt more private than monero because most people dont use its privacy features"
saying most people *dont actually use it in a private way*
is different than
"it isn't private"
but understandably he doesn't want to own up to the shitty UX and hassle of using LN privately.
Saying Lightning is super private is irrelevant if no one uses it that way in the real world because of it's bad sovereign UX.
>"Lightning isn't more private than monero because most people don't use lightning's privacy features"
I'm not saying that though.
I'm saying the average user is way better off using Monero than Lightning for their privacy because they're not going to deal with the 237 hoops you do to use it privately. They're going to download Wallet of Satoshi.
What are the risks of using an LSP exactly?
Vast majority are custodial.
LSPs users are pretty minor in comparison but carry similar issues (minus ability to get rugged)
Your transactions can be censored and privacy implications.
This is absolutely ancient fud
Monero has guarenteed supply.
its crazy but in the modern age,
you can prove *something* is true without knowing the *values* of what you're proving.
Good recent primer
Check out nostr:npub1yxp7j36cfqws7yj0hkfu2mx25308u4zua6ud22zglxp98ayhh96s8c399s on nostr:npub12qz56plzehejkyp4waaannmnny4y4c30j8q55a3wlk49haslga2snypdx8
nevent1qqsyyc9ncp5dl72fwatwlf64cq46cfqs6eswyup7j098fgdtp8sr9pqzypgq2ng8utxlx2csx4mhhkw0wwvj5jhz97guzjnk9m765klkrar42qcyqqqqqqgs0vekz
Thank you 🙏
unfortunately I can't recommend nostr:npub1yxp7j36cfqws7yj0hkfu2mx25308u4zua6ud22zglxp98ayhh96s8c399s as a source
without fail he posits the BEST self sovereign non-custodial LN usage,
against the WORST monero usage and edge cases
and speaks as if that was default usage.
its not that he doesn't have legitimate points,
but he feels like its his responsibility to push LN without actually explaining the tradeoffs to people.
Kanzan does not point out any errors in my reasoning
Apparently he doesn't think using lightning in a privacy preserving manner is practical, and he thinks using monero in a privacy preserving manner is
I disagree, I think using either one in a privacy preserving manner requires running your own node and doing it over tor
True, most people won't do that
But if you care about your privacy, doing it on LN gets you in a better place than you get by doing it on XMR
That is NOT what I said.
try responding to what I actually DID say,
rather than making something up and talking about that instead.
> he posits the BEST self sovereign non-custodial LN usage, against the WORST monero usage
This seems equivalent to the point I argued against:
> he doesn't think using lightning in a privacy preserving manner is practical, and he thinks using monero in a privacy preserving manner is
The "BEST" self-sovereign non-custodial LN usage seems equivalent to what I describe as "using lightning in a privacy preserving manner"
What you describe as "the WORST monero usage" seems equivalent what I contrast with "using monero in a privacy preserving manner"
It seems to me, based on your own words, that you think the former is impractical and the latter is practical
But I disagree for the reasons provided above
I said nothing about the practicality of implementation.
but I got it 👍
you're guessing equivalency between stuff I said
and stuff you think.
if you want we can (again) have a actual discussion about the user experience of running a LN node vs running a monero node.
or a comparison of the UX of sending $1000 worth of sats through LN
or through monero
