Yeah, that's how centrally-planned economies always are; no response to market signals. You don't have to care about the market, when you're sitting on a literal pile of Bitcoin and can just subsist off of that, forever.
Discussion
it even extends to VCs... because they have a big pile of money as well, the project doesn't have to have revenue for a long time. that's why there's no functional diference between damus and primal. both are not serving paying customers, but "investors"
Although to be fair if you're investing in Nostr at this stage you need a serious altruistic streak of one sort or another. Private equity running Toys "R" Us into the ground this is not.
The road to buggy clients and gay porn spam is paved with good intentions... and awe-dropping amounts of donor and investor money being wasted.
They're only wasted if the intentions are indeed good 😏
Bitcoin washing 😂
Deception, scams and blackmail is basically :90percent: of what the über rich actors on the worldstage spend money on.
So if some of them come here, it'd be weird to expect something different.
Should've know that 🤦♂️
I'm thinking it's all an AI play.
#plai
ai fools about 95% of the population, just like the fallacy of explosive nuclear fission
ok, nuclear fission i just always assumed that "the scientists know what they are talking about" but then i was prompted after reading Death Object to realise that the mechanics of it are infeasible
It's the protocol also I think, protocols have minds and intentions of their own. We currently have this incentive context wherein those who earn money from operating relays can earn more money when those who run free relays get spammed. And also where free relays will have to pay out to various API providers to deal with spam (visual stuff is LLM intensive), which means an urgent need for monetisation. And what do free relays have to sell besides user data and user attention? Or if the thing to sell is something in a platform paired with that free relay then the relay becomes a loss leader, which is its own dynamic.
I've spend a lot of time in both Hong Kong and Singapore. Hong Kong got the local housing incentives all wrong, while Singapore got them all right. That changes everything.
Well, maybe, but free Nostr relays hardly have to deal with spam. The rest of the Internet is much much spammier.
Our free relays aren't loss-leaders, as the relays themselves offer premium features or are part of a set with paid relays, so some people pay and that finances them for other people. We regard our relays as part of our product and our clients as the ideal viewer for our relays.
Yeah, it's such a weird space, here.
Completely defies all free market dynamics because it's aflood with charity. Charities are, by definition, not meant to solve the problems they address. They exist to perpetuate themselves by alleviating problems.
These aren't real investors. Real investors want a return on investment, and efficient development raises their returns. Why would an investor pay €500k for something that would be built better for €5k? He wouldn't, but they are.
The only real investors we have, on Nostr, are the individual people and companies zapping, crowdfunding, and making contracts with suppliers. We're increasingly off in our own economic ecosystem.
yeah, gitcitadel is doing stuff mainly for academic and git-based software collab, i want to focus on discussions, chat and calendaring
Yeah, we aren't really doing anything with that.
This sounds like you never had investors before. This "real investor" you talk about doesn't exist. It never existed. It will never exist. It's wishful thinking. A purely theoretical view of how things should be run. Which is ok for the books, and that's it. Its like saying that electricity is made by electrons flowing on a wire. Its great for high school science BS, but misses what actually happens, why it works or exists in the way it does. You will never change how investments (or grants) work, you can only learn to surf the wave for the benefit of your customers. If you think Nostr is unique in that regard, you are just suffering an extreme case of "the grass is always greener in the other side of the fence". This market mismatch that you describe that we have on nostr is not anything especial or unique to us. Or bigger here than in other places/fields. It is as common as shells on a beach.
It's common... in America. Particularly the West Coast.
I'm used to European investors, particularly German ones. They are much more attentive and critical because they are poorer and worry about making a loss.
American investors throw gigantic gobs of money at 10 projects. If one turns out, they break even. If two turn out, they turn a big profit. That works because they have such enormous amounts of money, and it means that they don't have to care what the other 8 do.
yeah, i'd prefer to work with investors with small cap and reasonable but attentive input on monitoring and having some input into the operations, but not a dominant role, of course. CEO is the one with veto power, and the investor has to trust them, primarily, and the CEO has to have a nose for bullshit in his contractors/employees
Yeah, attentive, reasonable investors are a blessing, for a business.
I am just going to live this here
https://klementoninvesting.substack.com/p/germans-are-bad-at-investing
Yes, and we're too poor to invest, anyway. Even the investment funds here are surpringly tiny, unless they are government-backed. We're more savers than investors.
But, people like to invest in *us*.
Everyone knows we got no game and are honest and hardworking, to a fault. That's one reason they like to hire us. We get fronted a lot of trust because we have everyone's favorite flavor of autism:
Can't lie, hyperfocuses, likes machines, good at maths.
indeed, that's why i'm going to go independent, build out the back end infrastructure and then save my funds to build out a decent proof of concept front end web app. or maybe i'll figure out a better strategy involving flutter.
this thing about not being able to make one UI codebase for mobile and desktop is bullshit in my opinion. i created a responsive layout for a PoW crypto web app that was acceptable and even not only between mobile dimensions (very small mobile like 800x480 display) it also scaled up to 4k. so idk what these people are talking about lol. lazy, is what i'd call it.
#Flutter you said :eyes: ?
yeah, flutter is the easiest for covering desktop and mobile, as far as i can tell. i mean, a lot faster than react native anyhow.
i've not got into UI stuff that much because there is basically no real options for keeping the logic in Go
Agreed. Is why I use it.
And Dart is ok-ish for what we do with it.
just curious, can it output a javascript/typescript/html type front end or?
ok, if you can build one codebase with reactivity to cope with small mobile screen up to 4k, i can sketch out the general spec of how the design will be on the 3 different sizes. i have already done a lot of work with this.
desktop apps that can shrink to mobile widths especially are handy when you have a dynamic tiling window manager, lets you stack little displays for apps that you want to watch but don't want big detail unless you want big detail
a great example is chat, btw. having a chat window in a side panel is so neat for collab, with a 4k display and sharing quarter sections of the rest of the screen.
there are so few really good UI designs in production unfortunately. i hate windows but the windows 8 paning system is so intuitive
Using Niel's stuff is more efficient than hiring a frontend developer. At most, you'd need to pay him to add some new components and help you with smoothing out the implementation.
well maybe i'll hire him to do the design and find a front end dev who can build in the necessary front end logic under it. it's a ways in the future i am still just building the shiny database at the moment
He is a frontend dev. All good designers are.
We're putting the infra together so you'll be able to "vibe code" it. Out in two weeks™️
i suspect that dart is too technical for dumbass LLMs
i can't see a better option, i'd rather not be stuck in web app land and react native is a joke.
if i had a year all funded to just work on a GUI library i'd make the smokinest golang GUI library that ever did exist. i made a pretty decent one in 6 months back in 2019.
Why suspect, did you not try? Pretty much the opposite of what you said is true
:checkmarkgreen:
you are not speaking from experience.
i came up programming in BASIC at 9 years old, 40 years ago. i have already tested several basic mathematics and logic cases with LLMs and they don't get them right. i repeatedly had to tell it "this has bugs" "oh yes this has bugs" yeah, so why did you FUCKING give me this garbage.
in that time i could have written 20% of it and in the time it takes me to find and fix the bugs, i could have written the rest.
whatever. kurzweil singularity sucker. you won't learn today but you will learn.
hype destroys the capacity to reason. i don't buy into hype, nor do i use hyped up shitty languages like javascript or rust or c++
You are right, I also got frustrated. These tools are not perfect
they are good search engines, but they don't reason.
i mainly use it now exactly for simple searches and simple, well known algorithms that would take me longer to write because i hadn't written one before. and once i have that algorithm i can just copy it and reuse it easily for other things.
The confusion arises in the massive gap between
What American investors like
(flashy stuff, built for influencers, tiktokers, and advertisers, massive audience you can capture to mine their data for your AI)
and what PAYING users like
(elegant, efficient, reliable stuff, that does something useful and makes sense running in a LAN, and good customer support)
There is simply much more promise of fast 🤑, in the first one, but the second brings in steady income and is harder to dislodge with a competitor.
yup. modesty is better than audacity. when you have a way to save your wealth.
just look at felis catus sylvestris. the image of the perfect balance of modesty and audacity in a fluffy little bundle.
There's a reason why #Einundzwanzig is so big, in Germany. And #Nostr. They appeal to the modest.
i was in their telegram for a while ways back, but i liked "dvadeset jedan" group better, the serbian bitcoiners
Also #PurpleKonnektiv started here. Anything more modest than meeting up for tea 🫖?