Indeed

That said, someone will one day write an algo for a client on nostr.

Hopefully it’s open, or if not, it allows one to turn it on or off or choose different algos.

I think the option of other revenue models enables better algos that are actually useful and not driven by advertising incentives. That to me is the key downfall of current social media algos.

The algos on nostr are coming, and that’s ok. Feels like the developer community here has set the tone for what’s expected of them and that will drive to much more meaningful outcomes.

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Hope I never see any advertisements on any Nostr client 💜

altruism when faced with greed is a bloody battle.

Algo are not bad if they're open & we have options choices

Yeah algorithms are just tools. If they are open and we can understand and control them, then all the more power to us. Also the value for value model makes the advertising model obsolete.

If a relay has an algo, how would we verify that?

I love this answer

Facebook and Instagram are already dead in my opinion.

Since I deleted both I see how it actually sucks people in, like a souleater they are stuck to the screen.

Like a heavy addiction.

I'm disgusted seeing it when real life conversations could be held instead.

Families of 4 at dinner all 4 glued to the device, no interactions between them...

I don’t like either anymore. Nostr and then a little bit Twitter for news

Agree. And the opaque algorithms is extremely powerful psychological tools, we are playing with fire.

What’s even more interesting to me is people are actually hitting “like” to do work for the algorithm and these companies. Unpaid work.

Humans being farmed

Invoice for Sats? Proper jargon in this other world? 😀

Can we talk about SnapChat and their “snap streaks” sucking people in for a min? My 12 year old just takes a picture of the ceiling and sends it to 50 random people 50 times a day to keep a streak going. THEY ALL DO IT! I put a 30 min time limit on the app. Such a time suck and he doesn’t even get any Bitcoin from it 🤦‍♂️

🙋🏻‍♂️guilty

😂

Worst is LinkedIn

The power and energy of unfiltered voices and ideas is what inspires the participants of this protocol. There is no middleman. There is no one siphoning off our energy and selling it or using it to churn their algos.

This is the closest thing I’ve experienced to sitting around a fire, laughing, debating, singing, and dancing. It’s a direct exchange of the energy of our stories.

How you upload your lighting wallet address!

Thank you!

No problem. The tutorial makes it really easy, especially if you’re using Damus. Be sure to post an invoice. It’s really fun to see the Zap come through.

That’s the part I’m looking forward to! Zap happy!

90% of people are not aware of this.

They have no technical understanding of the devices they hold in their hands.

They have no idea of the power it has, which works for or against them.

I too was a victim of this, I admit, but I have started to learn and use it much more consciously.

Thanks to all the toxic bitcoin maximalists, by the way. 💜🧡

Yeah, working for you 😆

Facebook's ~3 billion users are the largest unpaid labour force in history

No addict like to think about what they are doing. It's the whole point of it. How to get people to think is the question.

Tick Tock has taken my wife hostage.

TikTok is CCP controlled, OUR Wife !11 😆

No seriously I told everyone in my suroundings to resist and never download it.

Hard enough youtube rolled out shorts, but it's not comparable to the tiktok madness.

Very dangerous to children aswell.

China has a good approach in that regards, pushing educational content and banning delusional stupidity.

You’re right. Their version of it is strictly educational. Our version is a dopamine delivery product.

Its a weapon.

It’s an unhealthy environment. I tried to keep up many times and I always ended up having a yr+ deactivation break. A person who speaks something useful can be shadow banned and a silly makeup tutorial goes viral. I forgot to log in since I discovered Nostr.

Twitter: So you think anyone is reading your truth bombs? 😂

Yup, algos are very useful tools.

Tools can be misused, but it's not their fault.

Don't be afraid of them and don't trust them.

Algo on Nostr should be considered as little apps. Nostr client should allow user to load any algo app they want. Maybe even switch between multiple algos.

Why can’t the algo be me choosing who I follow through organic interaction and seeing their content in my feed?

Not scalable. You’re you. The sheep are the sheep. They need to be led.

Right.. so what’s the objective? Manipulate their opinions? Encourage social media addiction?

It could be used nefariously if opaque. But if its transparent and if you could fine tune it then it becomes powerful, an asset. And then maybe you could turn it on and off.

Given the state of tech, I have very little faith that it would be used ethically.

That’s why we need to do this now. If we establish rules of engagement that are ethical and rigorous, then it grows and it becomes very difficult to stop.

The objective is to make a town square.

This doesn’t happen with: CP, random porn, random violence, and random or targeted racism.

Maybe that's your objective...

It’s exactly my objective.

You’ll still be an asset to the community and those that wish to find you will be able to.

Nice post btw 😆

100% can get behind making different clients/algos for different types of people/use cases

at the same time I feel people should be less preclusive about sexual things including porn in general

Perhaps they should be, but they’re not. At least not at first.

And perhaps that’s the way it should be.

Wrong, porn is evil.

Is it? Are you the arbiter?

I find the older I get, the more the line between good and evil blurs and usually emerges as a matter of perspective.

What are your thoughts on your mother, sisters, daughters being degraded on camera for money?

Maybe if you narrow down your question I could provide something interesting. However, I don't really have anything to share on that.

Which part of the question do you find perplexing? You understand what I’m asking, right?

It's not perplexing, that's the point. It's not something I think about a lot.

I’m asking you to think about it and provide a response.

Should that happen it wouldn't really be any business of mine.

So if your daughter becomes a prostitute, that’s not your business?

I don't have a daughter so the question is rather meaningless to me.

How about your mother? It’s not your business if she becomes a prostitute? It wouldn’t bother you, it would just be business as usual?

I can only speculate that I would be supportive of what ever makes a family member happy.

What if she’s doing it out of desperation and despair?

Then I assume she is unhappy, and thus I would want to help them avoid that situation.

Are you on the spectrum btw?

Are they being degraded? Perhaps degrading themselves, yet at the same time they’re finding fulfillment in the attention.

They’re horses in the wilds letting the world know they’re open for business.

Profiting from it as well.

What’s the oldest industry in existence?

So you would be ok with your daughter being paid to have s*x on camera, is that correct?

No.

But we’re not all the same.

Delusional mental gymnastics. Someone’s child is the most precious thing in the world to them, NOBODY wants that for their children, except deranged psychopaths possibly.

Unfortunately you’re very wrong on this.

Also, many people have different viewpoints on sexuality and the expression of that.

Many cultures are much less worried about the expression of overt sexuality.

Those cultures may be corrupt, but they exist. It’s not a big deal for them.

I’m actually not wrong on this at all. Anyone that wants their daughter to become a prostitute is suffering from mental illness.

Ok? They may not want it, but they may not be worried if it happens.

You’re rather conservative.

I get it, and your view is the best view.

Doesn’t mean everyone will abide but it.

If they’re not worried, they don’t understand what happens to prostitutes or what that life is like.

Of course, in the real world where ppl touch grass, any sane parent would be worried.

You’re way too black and white on this.

I wouldn’t want my son to become a ditch digger either. The world still needs them though.

Not everyone wins in the game of life, yet they need a reason to exist.

What I originally said was that porn is evil. Just because some people are forced into horrible degrading conditions doesn’t mean we should tolerate or encourage it.

The logical conclusion of all "libertarians" and "anarchists" on the problem of evil...

"Meh, well it's not my problem"

The spirit of libertarianism isn't to prevent you from helping other people with their problems, but rather to not force your own problems on other people or vice versa.

"If you want to help them, fine, whatever."

"Not my problem, though."

Is that not fair?

They’re not what this is though. Many enjoy it, many get rich from it. It’s not as simple as black and white. Many shades of grey here.

Cope harder, porn addict

Well, that escalated quickly.

Omg!!! stop coping by directly addressing my claims where I am just arguing from ethos 99% of the time

I assure you there are people that do porn without being forced into it. Technically I have taken a dick pic (porn) of my own volition and not been harmed by it

I still don’t see it a as that black and white. It’s only degrading if you view it that way (to a point. We can’t all be animals).

Some make millions a month from it.

That’s not evil, it’s generational wealth.

Those are content moderation decisions, which is a separate issue I think.

How if it separate?

Is*

Do you always want to see all the content posted by all your follows in the chronological fashion?

Do you want to include the replies they post? The likes they give? What about their zaps?

Do your responses change when dependent on how long you've been logged out? Does it change dependent on the number of npubs you follow?

- All these are arbitrary choices that theclientt HAS TO make. I think we should be asking for transparency and user control of their definition of relevance.

- I don't think we should be villanizing attempts to improve relevance beyond basic chronological sorting

What’ll happen is someone will make the nostr algo (tm) and then one particular group entrenched in tech will come round and demand it censor any “transphobia” (etc) and if the devs don’t, they’ll start shrieking about how they’re nazis, and then they’ll try to dox them and get them fired.

And then the "I told you so" will start happening, but by that time some other cool new network will have been started that's totally different this time.

And so it goes.

Exactly. The incentives for censorship are different here. Target one client, several others will pop up the next day. All censored people and go there with 2-3 clicks, point at the censor, show him the finger and laugh.

That’s not an algo

The point

Your head

Seems like there should be some sort of UI for building and sharing your own algorithm to encourage user involvement and competition.

Smooth take Jack. I like your optimism with future algos

Isn’t that the competitive edge of NOSTR? Clients will be incentivized to create actually valuable and beneficial algos that benefit the end user to continue using their the end customer. The lack of monopolies in the space is better for everyone.

Yes

Did you foresee any of these algo problems in the early days of twitter? As someone non technical, it looks to me like it started off innocently and quickly evolved into something unintentionally evil. I don’t like myself on twitter.

We didn’t at all no.

But nostr dev model will avoid most of the issues.

Regardless of what Twitter has become, thanks for creating it! It brought a ton of value to me personally. 🍻

Do you foresee a future where twitter can adapt and co-exist or even thrive on top of nostr?

I’d like to see us be able to choose our own algos (or not) and client features like plugins. Add ons of sorts. Some can be paid, some free. No idea if that’s possible, ideally they are portable/interoperable

Exactly. And if we have a GitHub replacement built on #Nostr, swapping them out or turning them on and off as filters could be…easy? 🤷‍♂️

This it what I was discussing the other day as people had a low IQ breakdown.

The tone isn’t what you’ve said it is though. Prominent developers want to ban by association.

We need to have a serious and open conversation on the benefits of censorship as how to make it as ethical as possible so that free speech can flourish.

This may seem counter intuitive, but that’s life I guess.

We have the chance to write a new constitution here, and that’s a serious and heavy weight.

But… we can carry it and build the future.

Advanced filtering will be a must to cut through the noise and find what you're looking for.

I'm kinda waiting for one to create a good algorithm. Sort of necessary if you want to follow a lot of people but don't have time be online constantly.

That seriously used to be a strong suit of Twitter, I saw everything I wanted to see. Wouldn't have become a bitcoiner without it tbh.

I'm sure you thought this last time.

this is why i think its critical to standardize on an "algo server"

the standard can be VERY simple:

--------------

NIP-99: Relay Aggregator and Filtering

Clients MAY choose to use a Relay Aggregator and Filtering service

Events can be ranked with an optional ["r": ] tag appended to the events by the relay.

This functions as a "single inbound relay" with a feed of events.

Clients SHOULD display this feed in a separate area, tab, window, or other location.

Clients MUST allow the user to enable/disable these Aggregators

Clients MAY use the information from these Aggregators in any way, including modifying follow feeds, ranking comments, etc.

--------------

Done.

It’s so unfair to twist people’s words.🫂💜