Number of people tracked IRL from their online #bitcoin transactions and then charged, undergone asset seizure and in some cases imprisoned: 100's

Number of people tracked IRL from their online #monero transactions and then charged, undergone asset seizure and in some cases imprisoned: 0.

Even hardcore OGs like nostr:npub1qny3tkh0acurzla8x3zy4nhrjz5zd8l9sy9jys09umwng00manysew95gx would agree that if you really need privacy in your financial transactions and your liberty in on table, XMR might be a better option for Bitcoiners.

Maybe the future will give us better options for bitcoin privacy but in 2023 it's lacking considerably.

Sometimes "EASY" isn't the key to freedom.

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If you're going to spend on something that will land you in jail (or are super paranoid about total privacy, achievable or not) doesn't mean you have a need to accumulate monero and choose it as your unit of account.

Even if a minory of criminals use it as a hot potato to avoid jail, the value declines long term because nobody needs to HOLD and accumulate it. The dominant store of value free market emerging money will eat everything else despite any perceived advantage in one feature of some alternative.

True you don't need to accumulate monero to make use of its unique properties, merely pass through it as a medium of exchange. Of course this is if you assume that bitcoin is the only pristine store of value and nothing in our crystal ball will indicate otherwise.

imo there are a number of ways that bitcoin can be captured at the state level or the corporate level. If that plays out then monero is my realistic alternative. The percentage of my Monero stack using bitcoin as my unit of account is so small, this insurance policy is an easy one to maintain. I hold 1:1 ratio of BTC:XMR and could in all honesty ride XMR down to zero. But if (and it's a small if) bitcoin PubCo miners get pressured by nation states or BlackRock et all fuck up the NGU party then I believe it'll be sats well spent.

I think where I differ from most is that I don't believe that Bitcoin is going to change the world. It'll create a new class of very wealthy tax payers at best.

I've been transacting between BTC, XMR and CASH most weeks for years and there has never been a shortage of buyers and sellers at my required liquidity levels. For me, XMR has never skipped a beat in terms of settlement, low fees and privacy.

There are low fees because there is a low usage rate.

There is no store of value because it is infinite & it's properties readily changed to fit a communist agenda (ASIC fork).

You can not audit the supply,

You can not audit the UTXO set,

You can only trust that it's working as intended without any inflation bugs.

Ok NGU bro. You follow Saylor too most likely.

Just to confirm to any Bitcoiner that reads this in the future, your previous statements on "criminals" mean you believing Ross should remain in prison for his double life sentence for his "crimes"? You hate criminals in bitcoin right?

Ross Ulbricht is not a criminal & didn't steal money from anyone.

I was very clear, in what I wrote, maybe you have a hard time reading...

Monero miners steal computing power from people & it's a major reason why ASICs were resisted.

For any future Bitcoiners reading this,

Please go through this thread & read the articles unlike this illiterate 🤡.

nostr:nevent1qqstuyku9yqe74jjwltltptl3fc73lj33duwj64w76natjzr6yrdk2gpzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejsyg8zyc984uem8w3sqaq3r3zk0y7w7kxj4dput9jmmwm9t7g0juue4spsgqqqqqqswxt5hd

For any future Bitcoiners reading this,

Please go through this thread & read the articles unlike this illiterate 🤡.

note1rc29zpjhajem6qmta7fw0j92jswlmutdc0wlpmffgpz0e0y23xwqgm3swz

They love NGU even if FreedomGoDown. They will learn, or get burned and learn after.

There are low fees because of dynamic block size. In fact, the more users the cheaper tx fees become.

Then don't use it as a store of value.

No Bitcoiner is taking advantage of it's transparent/simple math to scrutinize the blockchain anyway so that doesn't help you audit. Are you making sure every block that all inputs = all outputs? No, you just run your node and pay no mind.

So in practice what is the difference?

A good Store of Value doesn't necessarily make something a good Medium of Exchange. Also, no one on the planet keeps 100% of everything they own in a Store of Value. I'm sure you hold fiat, electronics, cash, vehicles, etc that you didn't trade for Bitcoin.

Your last paragraph is reminiscent of early criticisms of Bitcoin in it's Darknet Market infancy.

#1 this isn't wholely true - to obtain Monero in large amounts you have an insanely challenging problem & will probably leave a trail behind for capture, this is why the mining protocol sucks & they should've stuck with ASICs:

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/police-arrest-man-for-laundering-tens-of-millions-in-stolen-crypto/

#2 I'm happy people who cheated their way to riches (see above) get absolutely fucked, this is why I want a public ledger - so we can audit - not recreate the black box fiat system for crooked leaders to abuse.

Here's another example of Monero use case due to ASIC forking, it wasn't a good idea, but the real use case of Monero is stealing of resources (direct & indirect):

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/japanese-police-arrest-16-individuals-123213014.html

#3 Liquidity is a real issue for spending Monero, & so is liquidity on BISQ, Robosats, & basically all methods of acquiring Monero (see first link above).

This leads to real users obtaining privacy, meanwhile not giving thiefs & other criminals an easy way out to dominate the network's usage.

Imho this is a feature not a bug.

#4 Monero can have privacy leaks we are not aware of, & we can not be sure about the future. That's why hard forks are consistently executed. This is known in privacy tech & why people usually still protect themselves by using public computers:

https://crypto.news/monero-privacy-bug-decreased-anonymity-for-3-years/

I'd push back on most of your points.. There is so much liquidity on the streets for XMR (and BTC) for cash trades. Going through Bisq or similar platforms isn't required. You just need to be in the right network. Your article doesn't say how the criminal was identified. I'd bet the farm is wasn't from any Monero transaction heuristics.

So you're happy to participate in a global financial network that has an open and transparent ledger for auditing purposes. I get that for a store of vlaue as long as you are a happy taxpayer and like funding the corrupt old establishent. That's fine and maybe when the government knock your door and ask for your bitcoin keys that they've linked to your real life indentity so they can issue you your freshly printed paper BlackRock vouchers as a replacement then great 🤟 I understand this is the price you are willing to pay for NGU and keeping bad guys off the street. And when you shout "but I've done nothing wrong, you can't do this" then remember this is the future you asked for.

Without privacy there is no freedom.

Constant hardforks in Monero is old news. Sethforprivacy dubunked this years ago.

When I read posts like yours I genuinely lose hope of bitcoin ever changing the world. It'll create a new generation of wealthy taxpayers who will bend the knee and kiss the ring at the very most. Monero users on the other hand I've always found are willing to give the noble class the middle finger regardless of its price.

I wish you good luck but we are cut from a much different cloth.

It's pretty great reading how misinformed you are of how the world actually works.

Heuristics lead you to Monero, as how you acquired it will always leave a trail if you're moving a sizeable amount of money - no need to even break the privacy characteristics, which have been broken on numerous occasions throughout it's history.

This is literally my whole point, & you happily avoided the lack of ability to actually mine Monero directly for your own blind bias.

& you're wrong, there are hardforks that are going to take place no matter what - even if the frequency is reduced.

Like I said, I'm happy people are using Monero to avoid taxes, they'll learn soon enough & I won't feel bad for them.

If you want to avoid taxes, move, vote with your feet.

Bitcoin has great privacy, with the largest anonset out of any cryptocurrency in the world.

Claiming it doesn't is proof of 🤡.

Bitcoin is not private on the protocol level. To claim it has the largest anon set is hilarious.

So you're just dumb, got it.

I'm not stooping to insults because I lack evidence to support my claims

Rightttttttttt

"Bitcoin has great privacy"

What the fuck have you been smoking son?

Can't work out if you are class of 21 or 22? The most recent converts to bitcoin are usually the most zealot.

Read the OP again, you can buy Bitcoin not tied to your identity very easily.

You would be transacting privately at that point.

Further CJ exists, I know tough to actually have a intellectually coherent argument for people sipping dumbfuckjuice like you.

I have also been using Bitcoin since 2016.

Researching since 2011.

Interested in privacy tech since then too.

You're trying to shove your views onto others without any substance, classic commie NRG.

"Researched bitcoin for 5 years before I grew some balls and bought"

- ShiShi21m

Another classic statement from ShiShi that's destined for the hall of fame.

While you were scratching your arse I was busy buying shrooms on Silk Road for 80btc a gram and getting scammed by FE vendors on Agora 🤣

Bitcoin belonged to the risk takers before the upper class intelligista entered the market. Glad you hate #monero, please please take longer than 5 years to grok it.

You're just showing how low level you really are here.

If you knew how Ring sigs worked you would know Monero anon set is larger.

KYC coin (Very few CEXes have Monero, users more privacy conscious obviously)

Institutional coin (institutions scared on Monero)

Users who don't coinjoin (Monero is private by default)

Users who don't use tor/i2p don't count (dandelion++ mitigates this with Monero).

That small fraction left is your bitcoin anonset

You don't understand what privacy actually means, good luck hope you're holding 100% of your wealth in monero.

Says the person arguing a public chain is more private than one that isn't. Cognitive dissonance to 11/10.

Typical ShiShi, nothing refuted, but endless claims on claims.

"You don't understand what privacy actually means" See I can just say stuff too.

Where did I say Bitcoin is more or less private than any other currency?

I said it has the largest anon set to hide in plain sight without relying on blackbox money supply issuance & bugs that can last for years.

Learn to read.

Anonsets include spendability,

All CJ implementations combined,

Mining,

Etc...

Anonymity (hidden identity) is different from privacy (hiding actions). You can have one without the other. And one can be weaponized to uncover the other.

And even "largest anon set" is dubious considering most Bitcoin is institutional, on CEXes, or KYCd without coinjoins

Ceteris paribus Monero will always be more private than Bitcoin. Bitcoin is a public blockchain. Cope.

#1 #3 You can get Monero KYC free easily. If you need huge amounts, buy Bitcoin KYC free -> swap to Monero. Tada!

#2 Doesn't make sense. It's either private for everyone or no one. You can't have it both traceable for criminals and private for honest users.

#4 Weak point too. You are worried about hypothetical future "privacy leaks" while your blockchain is completely public. Concern trolling. If you would read that article you would see it was only an increase in probability of choosing sender, wasn't deterministic. And even if they guessed correctly they would STILL NOT KNOW amount sent OR who the reciever was.

You cant do necessary upgrades in the privacy arms race without hardforks. The code is FOSS that is all that matters. If slim chance that all devs and maintainers nefariously collaborate we will just fork the project like we did from Bitmonero.

Low level to even lower level takes by monero folk.

🥱

No aguments against anything I said huh?

nostr:npub15y22exrknuzwd8rdhwu6y0gjyc6fcm04678lk06exckvym7s3zwq8zr802 nostr:npub1ugnq57hn8va6xqr5zywy2eunem6c624583vkt0dmv40ep7tnnxkqrr898l nostr:npub1qny3tkh0acurzla8x3zy4nhrjz5zd8l9sy9jys09umwng00manysew95gx well said, honestly Monero serves all purposes of bitcoin and does so better

if you are making some of your transactions with Monero might as well make all of them with Monero

Let’s be honest most major bitcoiners with a brain like Monero as well. They might changed their mind if btc has the functionality for end-2-end privately encrypted transactions .

Those that meaningfully contribute to the bitcoin space know the benefits.

And another one today from lead Glassnode analyst @checkmatey_

You can't debate me on my points so you bring in the views of a glassnode analyst...🤣🤡💀

What's to debate?

You're the one with his knickers in a twist throwing personal insults, cursing like a crazed 6yr old.

You were late to the party and think bitcoin is private. I get you're salty but there is no I'll feeling here friend. You do you and I'll continue on my path of rational optimism for bitcoin and monero surviving and living harmonious in a two coin future.

Adios from Ibiza.

🤣