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Some YouTube commenter said this on my recent TFTC appearance :

He is suggesting that voters are responsible for government actions by participating in voting. That by voting you are an enabler. That is illogical. If no one voted (except the politicians voting for themselves), we would arguably have a much worse government, as only the most power hungry, corrupt people would run, vote themselves in & make laws that benefit themselves to the detriment of the rest of society. I hear anarchists use the same flawed argument.

I find it a shame he didn't chose to post the comment on Nostr, as I'd love to discuss this point. I find it interesting that a voter chooses to participate and yet wishes not to be held responsible for the actions of the elected government. People really do consider themselves separate from the government, when in truth the government has power because it is given by its people.

What does Nostr think?

GHOST 1y ago

That breaks down when you take into account gerrymandering. The politicians in essence do elect themselves when they create with scientific precision these spiney ink blobs of voting districts. The people don't choose their politician, the politicians choose their voters. The more they win the more they can gerrymander as the winners create the districts. This creates an environment where they are not afraid of losing their seat to the other side but instead the threat is being displaced in your own party, driving ever more extreme positions.

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Discussion

DefiantDandelion 1y ago

💯

OpnState 1y ago

You are essentially arguing against the validity of voting in the first place. I see your point and really appreciate the images.

Are you completely comfortable brushing aside the concept that a government rules by the consent of the governed, because the voting process is rigged to achieve a certain end result?

Where does the government get its power from? Itself? Would that make any sense?

Only humans can grant power or extract it to/from another. I can grant myself the title of King right now, but my title only has power if other grant it to me.

GHOST 1y ago

Yes I am arguing against voting in the first place. Unless you live in a handful of swing states then the outcome is already predetermined. If you want to participate for local elections go for it but otherwise it is a pointless activity.

Zach⚡️ 1y ago

The smallest minority is the individual and "majority rule" through voting is often immoral.

OpnState 1y ago

People seek expediency by default because our brains are wired to expend the least amount of energy possible as a route to efficiency.

So, people delegate governance and thus we have the rule by majority.

In my opinion It is immoral only to the extent that the minority individual cannot freely leave if he disagrees. In a free and open world , an individual could just leave if he disagrees with the majority. There are many barriers to doing this today, so leaving often isn't an option.

OpnState 1y ago

In a way we are arguing to the same end. I suggested in the podcast that those who vote provide legitimacy to the government, and thus bear some responsibility for the governments actions.

Its just a thought I often ponder and knew it would be contravertial.

I also ask what would happen if no one voted in an election? What signal would that send? Would a government (elected by , say, 5% of the population) be legitimate?

GHOST 1y ago

Depends on what you mean by legitimate. In a philosophic Thomas Paine way then no it is not a government made up of the "will" of the people.

But look around the world, there are lots of governments that run with sham voting or no voting at all. They are legitimate governments that that legitimately hang you in the city square.

OpnState 1y ago

Who does the hanging?

A government can be given power, or extract it via violence. Either way there are humans behind every expression of "legitimacy".

Its always humans who give a government power. True, humans with guns can instill a lot of "legitimacy", and disproportionally so.

GHOST 1y ago

I have no interest in "giving" a government or anyone else power over me or anyone else.

Telluride 1y ago

that 2nd picture should be first for Normies that are unfamiliar. I'm stealing this.