Some YouTube commenter said this on my recent TFTC appearance :

He is suggesting that voters are responsible for government actions by participating in voting. That by voting you are an enabler. That is illogical. If no one voted (except the politicians voting for themselves), we would arguably have a much worse government, as only the most power hungry, corrupt people would run, vote themselves in & make laws that benefit themselves to the detriment of the rest of society. I hear anarchists use the same flawed argument.

I find it a shame he didn't chose to post the comment on Nostr, as I'd love to discuss this point. I find it interesting that a voter chooses to participate and yet wishes not to be held responsible for the actions of the elected government. People really do consider themselves separate from the government, when in truth the government has power because it is given by its people.

What does Nostr think?

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On a related topic: Cenk Uyger relayed some actionable ideas about removing big money from politics in the U.S., during his August 30, 2024 appearance on Lex Friedman’s podcast.

Thank you for what you do, nostr:npub1v6z4srj4ktch4f3ee9ze2zp7ml4n9rshttmntpamfed0nvpev5fszzuq49

You may also be interested in Represent.us

Its old, but it did have traction, and no reason why it can't be kickstarted again. Lobbying is legalized corruption.

I’ll check it out. Thanks.

Holding any culpability for voters is unfair because people are essentially voting under duress.

If you don't participate, other people will vote to take your stuff/rights. So you're forced to vote out of self defense.

Alt: the theory of authority is that the gov is acting on "the will of the people". If no one voted, they can't claim to have the consent of the governed

This is only true if one side asymetrically stops voting, giving the other side a decisive victory over the other.

How to improve the system is a difficult question; is it done by participating (and hoping the person elected makes a change) or is it done by "voting out" and building a better alternative?

Tangent, but You may find this interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf7ws2DF-zk

That breaks down when you take into account gerrymandering. The politicians in essence do elect themselves when they create with scientific precision these spiney ink blobs of voting districts. The people don't choose their politician, the politicians choose their voters. The more they win the more they can gerrymander as the winners create the districts. This creates an environment where they are not afraid of losing their seat to the other side but instead the threat is being displaced in your own party, driving ever more extreme positions.

💯

You are essentially arguing against the validity of voting in the first place. I see your point and really appreciate the images.

Are you completely comfortable brushing aside the concept that a government rules by the consent of the governed, because the voting process is rigged to achieve a certain end result?

Where does the government get its power from? Itself? Would that make any sense?

Only humans can grant power or extract it to/from another. I can grant myself the title of King right now, but my title only has power if other grant it to me.

Yes I am arguing against voting in the first place. Unless you live in a handful of swing states then the outcome is already predetermined. If you want to participate for local elections go for it but otherwise it is a pointless activity.

The smallest minority is the individual and "majority rule" through voting is often immoral.

People seek expediency by default because our brains are wired to expend the least amount of energy possible as a route to efficiency.

So, people delegate governance and thus we have the rule by majority.

In my opinion It is immoral only to the extent that the minority individual cannot freely leave if he disagrees. In a free and open world , an individual could just leave if he disagrees with the majority. There are many barriers to doing this today, so leaving often isn't an option.

In a way we are arguing to the same end. I suggested in the podcast that those who vote provide legitimacy to the government, and thus bear some responsibility for the governments actions.

Its just a thought I often ponder and knew it would be contravertial.

I also ask what would happen if no one voted in an election? What signal would that send? Would a government (elected by , say, 5% of the population) be legitimate?

Depends on what you mean by legitimate. In a philosophic Thomas Paine way then no it is not a government made up of the "will" of the people.

But look around the world, there are lots of governments that run with sham voting or no voting at all. They are legitimate governments that that legitimately hang you in the city square.

Who does the hanging?

A government can be given power, or extract it via violence. Either way there are humans behind every expression of "legitimacy".

Its always humans who give a government power. True, humans with guns can instill a lot of "legitimacy", and disproportionally so.

I have no interest in "giving" a government or anyone else power over me or anyone else.

that 2nd picture should be first for Normies that are unfamiliar. I'm stealing this.

Don’t read the comments bro

Haha, fair.

Really just doing what I preach - looking for discussions on topics I find interesting.

The more we discuss and debate, the better when it's done in a respectful manner.

nostr:npub1s05p3ha7en49dv8429tkk07nnfa9pcwczkf5x5qrdraqshxdje9sq6eyhe makes similar comparison about making the current system stronger by being a part of it.

What you said was provocative but uncomfortably rings true.